Good short Anatomy (muscle) Article of the Penis

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

Here is a good article that talks about both the skeltal muscle in the penis (BC, IC, and tunica) and the smooth muscle. It also breifly talks about how they are important for erection.

Anatomy of the Human Penis: The Relationship of the Architecture Between Skeletal and Smooth Muscles

To investigate the anatomy of the ischiocavernosus muscle, bulbospongiosus muscle, and tunica albuginea and to determine their relationships to smooth muscle, which is a key element of penile sinusoids, we performed cadaveric dissection and histologic examinations of 35 adult human male cadavers.

The tunica of the corpora cavernosa is a bilayered structure that can be divided into an inner circular layer and an outer longitudinal layer. The outer longitudinal layer is an incomplete coat that is absent between the 5-o'clock and 7-o'clock positions where 2 triangular ligamentous structures form. These structures, termed the ventral thickening, are a continuation of the anterior fibers of the left and right bulbospongiosus muscles.

On the dorsal aspect, between the 1-o'clock and 11-o'clock positions, is a region called the dorsal thickening, a radiating aspect of the bilateral ischiocavernosus muscles. In the corpora cavernosa, skeletal muscle contains and supports smooth muscle, which is an essential element in the sinusoids. This relationship plays an important part in the blood vessels' ability to supply the blood to meet the requirements for erection, whereas in the corpus spongiosum, skeletal muscle partially entraps the smooth muscle to allow ejaculation when erect.

In the glans penis, however, the distal ligament, a continuation of the outer longitudinal layer of the tunica, is arranged centrally and acts as a trunk of the glans penis. Without this strong ligament, the glans would be too weak to bear the buckling pressure generated during coitus. A significant difference exists in the thickness of the dorsal thickening, the ventral thickening, and the distal ligament between the potent and impotent groups (P <= .01).

Together, the anatomic relationships between skeletal muscle and smooth muscle within the human penis explain many physiologic phenomena, such as erection, ejaculation, the intracavernous pressure surge during ejaculation, and the pull-back force against the glans penis during anal constriction. This improvement in the modeling of the anatomic-physiologic relationship between these structures has clinical implications for penile surgeries.

Link:http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/...e2=tf_ipsecsha

[Dicko Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dicko]

Interesting article remek.

I read the full article and it got some nice tidbits in it that might aid our quest in understanding how PE works.
Hopefully this will add a few pieces to the puzzle..

"Note that the thickness of the tunica of the corpus spongiosum (CS) is consistently paper thin, whereas it varies markedly in the CC"

This is interesting, it would seem that the CS is easier to enlarge than the CC's due to the tunica being consistently paper thin around the CS and not always around the CC's.

"The young cadavers show, unequivocally, a remarkable muscle bulk, whereas elderly subjects sustaining chronic diseases tend to demonstrate a lighter skeletal muscle bulk and slimmer distal ligament as well as a thinner tunica albuginea."

This sheds some light on the impact of age in PE. But theres a second factor invovled, diseases. I wonder what had the biggest impact on the tissues, the chronic diseases or simply the aging. If we assume the aging plays a part then the elderly PE'ers seems to have an advantage in terms of a thinner tunica etc. It would make sense that a thinner tunica is weaker and therefore easier to enlarge than a thicker one and surely the tunica needs to be enlarged in PE (at least when theres significant gains).

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

Dicko, I thought so too.

I like your ideas. You know, older men appear to grow more and quicker than younger men. . . Perhaps the relationship is connected to your hypothesis.

[Dicko Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dicko]

The tunica is the tissue that has the greatest tensile strength in the penis, right?
That would mean that the tunica is the main limiting tissue we are working against.

If we go even further the tunica itself mainly consists of strong fibrous collagen tissue
and elastin which provides the elastic properties. The culprit is the collagen of cource.

What do you believe is the most effective method to stretch and enlarge collagenous
tissues? Do you believe in the low intensity, long duration approach as the most
effective to stretch collagen?

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

The tunica is the tissue that has the greatest tensile strength in the penis, right?

Yes.

That would mean that the tunica is the main limiting tissue we are working against.

Not necessarily. . . This is the traditional belief, but there really isn't a lot of evidence for this. Although, it would make sense for the tunica to be a limiting factor, I don't think it's the only one . . . and perhaps it's not the main one. Have you seen the smooth muscle article? It is my belief that we are also fighting the smooth muscle too. . . But not fighting it in the sense that we want to hurt it, rather we are exercising it as we exercise our typical skeletal muscles (e.g. biceps).

If we go even further the tunica itself mainly consists of strong fibrous collagen tissue
and elastin which provides the elastic properties. The culprit is the collagen of cource.

The tunica is much like a tendon -- and it is in fact an extension of real skeletal muscle located at the base of the penis. I'm not sure if the collage is the culprit.

What do you believe is the most effective method to stretch and enlarge collagenous
tissues? Do you believe in the low intensity, long duration approach as the most
effective to stretch collagen?

This is a really good question, and I'm sure you'll get a different answer from different people. Nevertheless, I believe a combination of both is best. For example:
Hanging for medium intensity (note I didn't say high . . . high intensity probably isn't necessary, imo) for a short amount of time; followed by low intensity for a longer period of time...

[Dicko Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dicko]

Not necessarily. . . This is the traditional belief, but there really isn't a lot of evidence for this. Although, it would make sense for the tunica to be a limiting factor, I don't think it's the only one . . . and perhaps it's not the main one.

Yes, its the classic theory, I believe in it. If it is in fact the toughest tissue in the penis then it must be the main limitation to penis enlargement but its not the only one as you said, the two fascia layers for example, altough not as strong as the tunica also contains collagen.

Have you seen the smooth muscle article? It is my belief that we are also fighting the smooth muscle too. . . But not fighting it in the sense that we want to hurt it, rather we are exercising it as we exercise our typical skeletal muscles (e.g. biceps).

Yes, I've read it, good read! I agree that its a must that smooth muscle is enlarged as well, but I believe it comes second to the thougher tissues. Lets say you manage to stretch the tunica 2" longer in an instant, now your erection will be weak because the smooth muscle cant fill it properly, kinda like a ED as you said. But I think you have to first enlarge the tunica and then you can enlarge the smooth muscle to accomodate the new tunica size, maybe it even enlarges itself automatically to fit the new tunica dimension? Of cource you could think of it the other way around, first try to enlarge the smooth muscle, in turn it will increase the pressure on the tunica and enlarge it. What do you think?

The tunica is much like a tendon -- and it is in fact an extension of real skeletal muscle located at the base of the penis. I'm not sure if the collage is the culprit.

I agree, a tendon like the tunica contains a lot of collagen, they are both designed to be very tough. But you say your not sure the collagenous tissue is the culprit, do you mean gains can come from lengthening the two ischiocavernosus muscles as well as lengthening the collagenous tissue (interesting theory)? I think the tunica is the main culprit here since its probably harder to lenghten than skeletal muscle which mainly consist of muscle fibers.

[Dicko Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dicko]

Good talking to you remek, you have a lot of interesting theories and ideas.

I found a interesting article about stretching collagen. According to the author who is a physical therapist (David Fleckenstein), the most effective stretching strategy is to go with low loads for longer durations. Basically what he says is when your stretching collagen the time is more important than the actual force.

The main question here is what is the most effective way to lengthen collagen, the primary building block of connective tissue? I like to think of collagen as an unusual type of spring. With stretching we are trying to lengthen, or deform the spring. While force is the most effective way to deform a regular spring (how hard we pull it apart), time is the most effective way to deform the spring of collagen.

http://www.aboc.com.au/tips-and-hint...-to-stretching

[Dicko Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dicko]

Remek, have you tried electronic muscle stimulation to enlarge the smooth muscle in the penis? Is it even possible?

(You know where you put some pads over the muscles on your body and then adjust an electric flow through the pads to stimulate the target muscle)

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

Dicko,

About the penis anatomy: I've been doing a lot of research/ thinking lately, and I'd have to say that I've come to the theoretical conclusion that were working out both the SM and the tunica. I don't know which one is the main culprit; perhaps both of them are. But until we can use some equipment to test and study the penis and it's reaction to PE, I don't think we'll know for sure. But I'll keep thinking about it.

About the electronic stimulation: that's an interesting idea. I would assume that we would still have to stretch out the tunica, so maybe something like this combined with hanging could produce some good results. It's worth a try. How does electronic stimulation work for skeletal muscle growth; does it actually work? I've never looked into it.

[gerrykjohnsons Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gerrykjohnsons]

... then you can enlarge the smooth muscle to accomodate the new tunica size...

I wish I could find the article now, but I remember reading a urology study which said that trying to grow smooth muscle was impossible to do in a healthy manner.

I read it in disbelief, and they were talking about the bladder. They gave numerous undesirable conditions which resulted from years of "holding your urine".

I immediately thought "Oh, no! I do that all the time!" Anyway, I eventually dismissed it because we are all growing some to some extent. Further, I decided I didn't really care that much...

Has anyone seen any studies regarding the growing of smooth muscle?

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

gerrykj,

Interesting. I've never read anything that stated growing smooth muslcle in a healthy manner was impossible. If you by some chance remember the articles name, please post it here.

By the way, here is study regarding the growth of SM: http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/81/3/999

[gerrykjohnsons Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gerrykjohnsons]

By the way, here is study regarding the growth of SM: http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/81/3/999

I understood from the article I saw that vascular was somewhat different than the bladder smooth muscle. I wildly assumed the bladder would be more related to the penis (for no good reason other than proximity).

I will go back to the urology site and see what I can find.

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

Let us know what you come up with!

[gerrykjohnsons Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gerrykjohnsons]

So far I've only found discussions on hypertrophy versus hyperplasia.

Just got me wondering if this is how people lose gains. If smooth muscle gains were due to HT, I suppose, like any muscle, it'll reduce as demand decreases.

That is, versus HP where there has been true growth - new cells.

Anyway, I'll keep searching until I find it.

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

gerry,

You hit a good point. SM can grow due to HP (hyperplasia, cell regeneration) and HT (hypertrophy, cell enlargement, i.e. the way skeletal muscle grows).

In all honesty, I believe that HT causes temporary growth. Which also, IMO, has an added side effect of stretching out the tunica... which is good for later permanent growth.