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Originally posted by zezeze
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His base level is 400 it is certainly possible to increase to over 600 with modest natural methods and that is likely to have a big impact. -
400-->600+ is a 50% increase.Originally posted by Pegasus View Post
"Natural" methods like dietary changes and exercise can optimize your T level by 10-20%. -
What a load of bs . It is common to have increases far larger than 20% . For that matter I have myself . Take a look on the web large increases are common often from fairly modest changes in lifestyle . Eg sleep more , get some basic exercise eat decent food instead of junk.Originally posted by INS View PostComment
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Nope.Originally posted by Pegasus View Post
Take a look at controlled studies instead of people claiming things on the internet. Modest lifestyle changes at best improve it by 20%
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/1...2.RE.11.OR28-3
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4811358/Last edited by INS; 12-24-2017, 06:35 AM.Comment
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Will find more studies in a while.Comment
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I have my own personal experience and the net is full of similar . You can find more onsite .Originally posted by INS View PostComment
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So lets see in study 1 there was a 15% average increase in test level over a group of guys that seem to be middle aged diaibetics . Now the issue here is they do not say what these lifestyle changes were . They could have been anything.Originally posted by INS View PostComment
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This from study 2.
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Obesity-associated reduction in testosterone is based on the effect of high estradiol from an increase in aromatase activity present in the abundant adipose tissue. The resulting hyperestrogenemia suppresses the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal unit resulting in low testosterone production. Although weight loss has been found to be effective in reducing estradiol and raising testosterone levels in studies of younger men, its effect in frail obese older men is understudied. Thus, objective of this study was to determine the effect of lifestyle intervention on hormone levels in frail obese older men.
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So lets see it states weight loss is effective in raising test in younger men . This short term study in FRAIL OBESE OLDER men was not as generaly successful though they did have a reduction in estraidol .
Stop wasting my time with tis cherry picking.Comment
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I will give a brief view of my experience .
My test level was low and it had effects .
Now the problem I had is I was already eating well and doing weights I was not carrying a lot of dead weight either; hmm so some obvious ways forward with lifestyle didn't look promising .
So hang on a minute alcohol could be an issue docs say all that ails you is down to too much alcohol . Well lets see I did drink more than the 2 thimble twice a week that they say is the max for health . So I stoped drinking entirely . Three months later my test level hit it's lowest point in the low 300 's .
Well not drinking wasn't helping I was doing weight training as well as I could given the lack of energy low test causes. I was eating well things looked bad .
Hang on a minute what about sleep and stress . Well sleep was always an issue but I sort of tried to work it out . Hmm maybe that could be improved . What about stress well shiiit when I looked at it I suddenly realised how stressed I was . I had been living in stress for along time it had become normal . I took up yoga and did what I could to mellow out . My test levels went up to over 500 where they have been ever since . Mind you I still do yoga .
Now that is an increase of circa 50% with no diet change and I kept drinking . The exercise change was to add yoga ,the mental change and I admit it is a big one is to commit to dealing with stress instead of letting it fry me.Last edited by Pegasus; 12-24-2017, 09:28 PM.Comment
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What is the bet study 1 included some guys who had increases over 20% you know those guys who did the work (whatever that was) and some guys who got little result ( you know the guys that dogged it)
For that matter if I had been in study 1 I would have had negative results.Last edited by Pegasus; 12-24-2017, 09:30 PM.Comment
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By the by some guys will not be helped by natural methods and nee hrt . But first they should give it a REAL go and try a variety of natural methods .
Here is a partial list of natural methods (100 odd) as re my earlier post I endorse method 9.Comment
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Not cherry picking. Just showing all the studies.Originally posted by Pegasus View Post
By younger men in those studies they mean 35-50 year olds. Also, if you look at the studies cited, there is a significant weight loss (around 20 kgs give or take as a trend) in 2-3 months (general trend of these studies is 8-12 weeks)
http://www.eje-online.org/content/16...ic-2.large.jpg
Body weight loss reverts obesity-associated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism: a systematic review and meta-analysis
The first image shows the effect of calorie restriction weight loss on testosterone (and also bariatic surgery in the bottom half). The mean change (ignoring the 2 low outliers) is 4 nmol/L (roughly 115 ng/dL) although one study there has massive weight losses for long term follow up (with big increases in serum testosterone as well)
You can check through the citations (26-32) for the studies.
Some recent studies:
http://sci-hub.tw/10.1507/endocrj.EJ14-0555
Subjects reduced weight from 85->73 kg with low calorie diet and brisk walking in first 2 months followed by walking+jogging in last month 3 times/week. Mean testosterone increased by 1 nmol/L (30 ng/dL)
(the links show up as question marks, but they work)
???????? ??????
Subjects divided into exercise+diet and diet alone. Exercise involved aerobic for 4-7 times/week in a more intense protocol than previous. Calories restriction was to 1700kcal/day. Mean increase in exercise+diet group is about 3nmol/L (85 ng/dL)
???????? ??????
Normal weight and obese subjects. Normal weight subjects show no increase with aerobic exercise. Obese show increase of 3 nm/L (85 ng/dl). Change in weight isn't much (2 kg). Regimen is 90 min/day for 1-3 days/week.
Conclusion
The only time we see total Testosterone level increasing by 40%+ is in big weight losses in very obese people.
I wouldn't call these life style changes modest.
Limitations of the studies done so far is they are on 40-50 year old men, obese men only (not checking for healthy weight men except in 2 studies), not checking the effects of resistance training.Last edited by INS; 12-24-2017, 11:30 AM.Comment
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You know what weight loss did for my test ? It got worse when I lost weight . When I gave up alcohol I did more cardio and tightened up my diet . Now I was not obese but at 104kg weight loss was no bad thing ,I got down to 95kg . Not only did it not work at all my test level actually got lower .
So they give these guys a cookie cutter it worked for them even though similar did not for me . I had to find a different way forward and so would many of these guys . In their case it might involve weight training and'/or eating more calories or more fat.
So lets see now you are saying some guys increased test by 40% with this cookie cutter . The cookie cutters seem to have involved only stuff like cardio and weight loss in a group that seems to be far from ideal subjects.
If you look at the link of some natural methods in the link I posted there are numerous other methodology to try. In general the most highly regarded methods revolve around weight training and diet changes that would not cut calories but if anything increase them .
So in short; the studies show a less than ideal group, using a less than ideal cookie cutter methodology, still had success in some cases 40%.
Might I suggest a younger more healthy group with a more ideal individualised program carried on over a longer period would have got better results .
Keep in mind if I had done any of the programs mentioned I would have got no results . In fact my initial attempt was very similar and did get no results . Likewise those that got good results that I have seen on the net did not use methodology at all like that in the studies you posted.Comment
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Here I a quote from the meta analysis you posted .
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This meta-analysis shows that body weight loss is associated with a relevant increase in gonadotropins and in bound and unbound testosterone, with a decline in the estrogen level. Androgen rise is greater in those patients who lose more weight. The beneficial effects of body weight loss are more apparent in younger, non-diabetic subjects with a greater degree of obesity; however, this could be due to a greater body weight loss.
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So weight loss which is one of many methods of test increase works at least for many . You have just proved it ,congrats .
You do realise there are 100 odd other natural methods ? Perhaps more . Often used in combo by the way ..Comment
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