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  • Got strong erections back

    EDIT: I have been lurking here for years, joined this year and tried everything I read on here and finally found a solution I believe for me. I also now only do PE about once a week, just a good 30-50 jelqs. I used to do 45 minute long routines 3 or 4 times a week, stopped fully when the erection problems came, and just recently started the super easy once a week workout after having solid erections for a while now.

    I went through a whirlwind the last year and a half with my EQ. I always had ridiculously hard erections that would come from simply kissing a girl or cuddling. Then one night with a girl, nothing happened, even with self stimulation. It felt like my penis was dead or not even there. It was very embarrassing and from this point on I couldn't get more than 75% hard even with porn, and if I stopped physical stimulation my erection would be gone in seconds.

    I had a few more instances where I couldn't get it up and then started avoiding opportunities for sex because I didn't want to experience the humiliation of not being able to perform.

    After a year and a half of trial and error, I confidently feel like I am 98% cured. And that last 2% is the fact that though they still come easy it seems erections don't come quite as instantaneously as they did before and libido is a little lower than I remember before that night above. However this could be due to getting older, I just turned 32.

    I will explain what worked for me, but first I want to address no fap.

    After not being able to get it up, I went on the internet and discovered no porn/no fap. I was always a at least once, usually 2-3 times a day masturbation with porn. So this got my attention. My first attempt I made it 65 days. Had a week of masturbating but no porn. Then I did 93 successful days. I still can't say whether this helped or hurt, but lean towards the latter.

    My opinion, is that no fap/ no porn is not a good thing unless you have a serious problem, like hours a day to weird, disturbing porn. I was at 1-3 times a day to sometimes just pictures but otherwise normal, just a guy and girl going at it or 2 girls, or a girl solo. Why I think it can be detrimental is based on personal experience and some reading on the brain. During the end and after no fap I could once again get close to 90% erections but they would still disappear after seconds if manual stimulation was stopped. What changed though was that prior to no fap, though I couldn't get good erections I still mentally felt really horny all the time. After no fap, I could get decent erections and keep them if stimulation was kept up, however my libido and sex drive were GONE. I felt nothing when I saw a hot girl on TV or in the street. Had no desire for sex, to look at porn or masturbate. I basically made myself get off occasionally after I completed no fap. Kind of a catch-22.

    Why I think no fap is a bad thing unless you have a serious problem ties in with some brain research. I won't get detailed so you can look it up, but basically when a person does something over and over again 'grooves' form in the brain making it subsequently easier for those types of neural connections to fire. If you complain all the time, it becomes easier to be negative and complain and harder to be positive. If you practice the same song on piano over and over the song gets easier to where you don't even have to think about it. Vice versa as well. My theory is that no fap did the opposite, making my sexual/horny neural connections rusty, thus I never felt that strong libido I had before.

    But that's kind of off topic, if no fap works for you...awesome, it didn't for me.

    So, here is what did work.

    1. Reverse kegels. Leading up to that one night where everything to do with my erection changed I was doing a ton of super hard, long hold normal kegels because I knew I was going to have sex with this super hot girl I met, so I wanted my erection to be as good as possible (I'll talk about this state of mind later). I noticed after that night something didn't feel right in my pc/bc muscle area. It felt really tight, annoying almost painfully tight for pretty much a year.

    So I found out about reverse kegels and started doing 100% reverse kegels only. At first I could hold them for maybe 10 seconds, but I worked up to doing 5 reps of 30 seconds spread throughout the day. After a couple weeks of No normal kegels only reverse, my erection quality improved greatly. So I kept at it. At about the 6 week mark I noticed erection quality starting to fade again. But kept up the reverse kegel only workout figuring there would be ups and downs in this recovery. I did reverse kegels only for about 3 months, around 5 30 second holds thoughout the day, 3-4 days a week. My erection was improved to about 80-85% and would remain longer with no stimulation, however this started to get worse after a while on the reverse kegel only workout.

    Here I had sex a few times and it took manual stimulation to get hard, but once I was in I had no problem keeping it up, but still at about 75% quality. However, I noticed I could last forever. Before the erection problems, I got to where I could last a long time (from edging work) but it took a lot of mental discipline and effort so to speak and I would have the occasional 2 minute 'oops'. So I think reverse kegels are the answer to pre-ejac.

    2. Regular kegels. At this point I stopped the reverse kegels but was afraid to do normal kegels because I didn't want that permanent tension in my pc muscle to return. But after a while I figured I had nothing to lose so I started doing really light, 10 second holds a few times a week. This definitely helped, I was at close to 90% after a couple weeks.

    My theory is that I somehow messed up my pc/bc muscles from doing the super hard overtraining kegels. The reverse kegels helped this, and then doing reverse kegels only for so long, which actually made my erection worse, ultimately helped to get my pc/bc muscles healed and rid of the chronic tension. though it made them weak, thus starting up regular kegels after a sufficient amount of time spent relaxing them with reverse kegels. So I had to go backwards to go forward so to speak.

    3. This one was a huge piece of the puzzle, something I interestingly can't find too much info on with regards to males, however a girl told me it is a fundamental part of her kundalini yoga practice but everything I find online talks about it in regards to females only.

    It is the 'Root Lock'. Basically like doing a kegel with your anus. Squeezing it as if you wanted to hold in a fart.

    After starting these, just 2-3 30 second holds a few times a week, I got a sensation I haven't had in a long time with my erection. Before I started having problems my erections would be so hard it almost felt as if with the blood being powerfully forced outward into my dick, some opposing force or muscle in my lower belly, the area if you were to follow inside my belly where the shaft connects, something was pulling inward in opposition to the blood flowing outward. The sensation makes for super strong erections, almost like with a string puppet pulling down on the string makes the puppet raise his arm.

    When practicing the 'root lock' I started getting this sensation and super hard erections. This brought a big time positive, so far permanent change in the quality of my wood.

    I now do about 80% regular kegels and root locks to a 20% reverse kegel workout. It basically equates to 3-4 days a week of kegels and root locks, and on different days, 1 or 2 days a week a 1 or 2 20 second reverse kegel holds.

    4. To address my libido through lots of research and a cabinet full of worthless supplements, I found a very important mineral that most people don't know anything about. (I tried Maca, horny goat weed, fenugreek, inositol, brocoli extracts and countless others). (note tribulus does seem to help a little with being more in the mood and L-arginine maybe indirectly helped as it lowered my blood pressure to normal levels when I take 1 cap twice a day)

    It is Boron

    It is known to increase testosterone and basically balance all hormones to good levels in both men and women.

    I found something called Tri-Boron by a good supplement company. Just look it up. They recommend 2 caps twice a day. I started with just one a day, and noticed small improvement. So I started the recommended dose. Wow.

    So I upped it even more and I felt like a teenager again. Sex was all that was on my mind.

    I now take 2 caps three times a day because with most supplements the recommended dose is a safe dose to prevent bad things, but not a therapeutic dose. However I cycle it 3 days on 2 or 3 days off just because I feel anything that affects hormones should be cycled otherwise the body down regulates slightly and the supplement becomes less effective.

    Also, I rub one out maybe 3 or 4 times a week to very tame porn, sometimes none, usually just pictures to keep that libido 'groove' in tact

    5. Lastly and arguably most importantly, I simply decided to stop worrying about my dick. I just got tired of constantly monitoring how my penis felt, was it shrunk today, was it hard flaccid, was it plump, how long did it take to get fully hard, i got so sick of this I just said fuck it and who cares. Do the three things above that you know help and stop fretting over it. If you can't get hard with a girl, who cares it's happened before and you survived. You've had enough sex in your life that if it never works again, oh well. I was just sick of worrying about it constantly that I decided to let it all go. I feel this is a major part of recovery for anyone who has experienced erection problems before.

    So that's that, a super long recount of over a year and a half of struggle with erection problems that seemingly came out of nowhere literally overnight.

    Hope it can help others as this is a miserable thing to go through.
    TennisBalls
    Junior Member
    Last edited by TennisBalls; 11-13-2013, 11:47 PM.

  • #2
    Great post. I am on the road to wood again, and I will look into your info to further my quest. I am almost at the 10 months of no porn, and went over 100 days of no touching. Like yourself I have decided that a couple times a week keeps thing in check. I also have started regular sessions with a Aneros Prostate Massager..............Ya it gets all the different muscle groups down there firing. Things are getting better day by day, and its good to see that there is a pattern forming. Thanks TAAB

    Comment


    • #3
      I didn't mention it, but told a few people who PM'd me after posting, that I occasionally use the aneros and it definitely helps relax all the pelvic floor muscles. Recommended, plus it feels great

      Comment


      • #4
        Also, on the road to wood again should be a t-shirt. Preserve our forests if anyone asks. What's my age again?

        Comment


        • #5
          LOL ! Well Ill keep my ED post going till I'm fixed. Mentally I know I am over the porn thing, and that in it self is the biggest step. TAAB p.s. working on shirt !

          Comment


          • #6
            wow long post!! congradulations man I might look up that Tri-Boron

            Comment


            • #7
              How long did you take the Boron pills, and are you still taking them?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TAAB View Post
                Great post. I am on the road to wood again, and I will look into your info to further my quest. I am almost at the 10 months of no porn, and went over 100 days of no touching.
                I always wondered ... if you don't touch yourself ever again, like you did for 100 days, do you get "wet dreams" like back when we were teenagers?
                "with great EQ, comes great responsibility"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ok, I have been experimenting with something else for just over a few weeks (didn't want to post until I thoroughly tested it) and it has really brought my confidence and erection to an even higher level. That instantaneous erection and getting aroused just from seeing a hot girl on the street is getting back to pre ED days.

                  Along with some readings here, and thinking back on my experience of 60+ and then 90 days completely free of porn and masturbation (with not a lot of success) there are a few reasons I gave this an attempt for a few weeks and I think it is another key. Among them are that balance is crucial in life, arousal is both physical and mental, and most importantly the mind-penis link.

                  Balance is key:
                  I am fully against the hardcore no fap, I believe in a use it or lose it philosophy in life. If you don't get out of bed, your muscles atrophy. If you don't stimulate your brain by learning you become dull and slow, if you don't play golf regularly you lose shot consistency. Obvious right. Well, you don't use your penis, it stops working as well. But as with balance in all things, if you overtrain you start losing the benefits and it becomes detrimental. Same with masturbating. So from my experience with no fap, I feel one should masturbate or at least work up an erection once a week minimum. **If you are a hardcore pull your dick all day every day until it's raw maybe a 2-3 week no touching decondition/healing is needed. And maybe a good 7-10 days break would be good for everyone occasionally, but you want to keep that penis functioning. That is also why we get night wood, Mother Earth's way to keep things functioning properly.

                  Sex is both mental and physical: Why I also believe hardcore,no fap, no touching is not a good thing is if we look at it logically. To me (barring you're not using a death grip), a vagina is more physical stimulation than a hand. Duh, it fully engulfs your dick in a tight yet soft way that your hand can't. So (again barring a death grip) the concept of rubbing one off every now and this then desensitizing your penis seems a bit of a leap to me.

                  What I'm getting at is that physical stimulation, and actually using your penis the way we were meant to, i.e. getting hard on a regular basis(or better yet getting hard with a real girl) is important.

                  Which brings me to the whole point of this post -

                  The Mind-Penis Link: As said above, sex is both physical (having your dick touched, either by you or a girl, to the point of getting a full erection, is important) AND mental. Every male should be able to easily get an erection just by closing your eyes and fantasizing about that hot girl you know for a while. This is a big aspect I noticed after the night I first couldn't get it up with a girl. Prior to this, pretty much every night all I could think about before drifting off (if I hadn't just jerked off) was sex, and while imagining these fantasies I would fall asleep with an erection. After my first ED experience it was like this ability was cut off. I could no longer stay focused on the idea of sex mentally for long enough to even come close to being aroused. It was as if some connection between mental and physical was cut off.

                  (My theory is the 'trauma' of not being able to perform lead to an anxiety and unhealthy fixation on my dick and whether it was working or not, is what cut off this ability. so we need to retrain the natural automatic response. See below)

                  The way to fix this 'Mind-Penis Link' then I believe, is to masturbate using only your mind and hand as stimulation. Cut out porn.

                  I am not the first to say this on this board for sure, but I feel my explanation of why it works and my emphasis on NOT fully cutting out physical stimulation might help others. I came to this conclusion through my remembering back to how I could get hard just from thinking about sex prior to ED which spurred my trial the last 3 or 4 weeks. (I would also recommend edging without finishing to mental imagery alone as a good practice as well)

                  But what I found and what you will probably find, is at first, for the first probably two weeks it's hard to get aroused without porn. It feels like a chore, literally. This is because the Mind-Penis Link has been severed, and it is now the Porn-Penis Link. And back to my OP, the 'grooves' in the brain, the neural connections that equate to mental imagery leading to hard dick and physical stimulation leading to hard dick have become rusty. New grooves that are now 'porn on screen leads to hard dick' have replaced them. So you need to literally retrain your brain and penis to get aroused by different (mental alone) imagery and thoughts. However, sex is both mental and physical so I see no harm in touching yourself either, unlike a lot of the hardcore no porn/no fap people like to profess.

                  And a key benefit is that using self stimulation along with only mental imagery helps to initially anchor getting hard with sexual thoughts. At first it took me the combo of mental sexual imagery/thoughts along with physical stimulation to work up to a full erection. And it took A LOT longer than with the aid of porn at first. Also at first, either one alone was not enough, I would get bored before getting hard with just mental fantasy, or just physical stimulation (blank mind). After practicing for a couple weeks, and it truly did feel like practicing in the true sense of the work, I noticed that either one alone quickly kick started the arousal process so that when I would think a sexual thought I would feel the blood start flowing and then quickly feel the urge to start touching my dick too. If I just happened to find myself mindlessly grabbing my junk while laying on the couch, the blood would quickly start flowing and I found myself quickly thinking of sex and fantasies. Now either one alone leads to quick erections. Falling asleep thinking about sex, i get erect. My pants are for somehow rubbing my dick in a way, the blood starts flowing. It's a beautiful thing. (to note, a real woman would obviously be the best form of physical stimulation, but as those of us know that have gone through this, a real woman can lead to too much performance anxiety and believe it or not distraction to retrain this Mind-Penis Link, so working with it by yourself will get it back so that when you are actually with a woman, it is automatic)

                  Another long one, but I feel the Mind-Penis link is key. Physical and Mental stimulation each having a 'hand' in this. However, porn is some sort of bastardized permutation of the two without including all aspects of both like a real woman would, or your hand and mind would, so this should be cut out.

                  Anybody else got any thoughts on the 'Mind-Penis Link' ?
                  TennisBalls
                  Junior Member
                  Last edited by TennisBalls; 11-18-2013, 06:49 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Protato View Post
                    How long did you take the Boron pills, and are you still taking them?
                    I am still taking the boron pills 6 caps a day for 2 or 3 days, then 2 or 3 days off. (4 caps a day is recommended but is only 3mg of boron, I've read we can use more. However if you take a seven day average I am probably at less than 3mg a day)

                    These are one of the few supplements that I truly notice a difference from.
                    TennisBalls
                    Junior Member
                    Last edited by TennisBalls; 11-18-2013, 06:22 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      TennisBalls, Great thread and input.

                      Can you give us a no nonsense breakdown of the supplements (exact brand, dosage, and manner/times in which you take them) that you believe substantively benefit you in this area? I have heard Boron increases free test, fyi.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TennisBalls View Post
                        Ok, I have been experimenting with something else for just over a few weeks (didn't want to post until I thoroughly tested it) and it has really brought my confidence and erection to an even higher level. That instantaneous erection and getting aroused just from seeing a hot girl on the street is getting back to pre ED days.

                        Along with some readings here, and thinking back on my experience of 60+ and then 90 days completely free of porn and masturbation (with not a lot of success) there are a few reasons I gave this an attempt for a few weeks and I think it is another key. Among them are that balance is crucial in life, arousal is both physical and mental, and most importantly the mind-penis link.

                        Balance is key:
                        I am fully against the hardcore no fap, I believe in a use it or lose it philosophy in life. If you don't get out of bed, your muscles atrophy. If you don't stimulate your brain by learning you become dull and slow, if you don't play golf regularly you lose shot consistency. Obvious right. Well, you don't use your penis, it stops working as well. But as with balance in all things, if you overtrain you start losing the benefits and it becomes detrimental. Same with masturbating. So from my experience with no fap, I feel one should masturbate or at least work up an erection once a week minimum. **If you are a hardcore pull your dick all day every day until it's raw maybe a 2-3 week no touching decondition/healing is needed. And maybe a good 7-10 days break would be good for everyone occasionally, but you want to keep that penis functioning. That is also why we get night wood, Mother Earth's way to keep things functioning properly.

                        Sex is both mental and physical: Why I also believe hardcore,no fap, no touching is not a good thing is if we look at it logically. To me (barring you're not using a death grip), a vagina is more physical stimulation than a hand. Duh, it fully engulfs your dick in a tight yet soft way that your hand can't. So (again barring a death grip) the concept of rubbing one off every now and this then desensitizing your penis seems a bit of a leap to me.

                        What I'm getting at is that physical stimulation, and actually using your penis the way we were meant to, i.e. getting hard on a regular basis(or better yet getting hard with a real girl) is important.

                        Which brings me to the whole point of this post -

                        The Mind-Penis Link: As said above, sex is both physical (having your dick touched, either by you or a girl, to the point of getting a full erection, is important) AND mental. Every male should be able to easily get an erection just by closing your eyes and fantasizing about that hot girl you know for a while. This is a big aspect I noticed after the night I first couldn't get it up with a girl. Prior to this, pretty much every night all I could think about before drifting off (if I hadn't just jerked off) was sex, and while imagining these fantasies I would fall asleep with an erection. After my first ED experience it was like this ability was cut off. I could no longer stay focused on the idea of sex mentally for long enough to even come close to being aroused. It was as if some connection between mental and physical was cut off.

                        (My theory is the 'trauma' of not being able to perform lead to an anxiety and unhealthy fixation on my dick and whether it was working or not, is what cut off this ability. so we need to retrain the natural automatic response. See below)

                        The way to fix this 'Mind-Penis Link' then I believe, is to masturbate using only your mind and hand as stimulation. Cut out porn.

                        I am not the first to say this on this board for sure, but I feel my explanation of why it works and my emphasis on NOT fully cutting out physical stimulation might help others. I came to this conclusion through my remembering back to how I could get hard just from thinking about sex prior to ED which spurred my trial the last 3 or 4 weeks. (I would also recommend edging without finishing to mental imagery alone as a good practice as well)

                        But what I found and what you will probably find, is at first, for the first probably two weeks it's hard to get aroused without porn. It feels like a chore, literally. This is because the Mind-Penis Link has been severed, and it is now the Porn-Penis Link. And back to my OP, the 'grooves' in the brain, the neural connections that equate to mental imagery leading to hard dick and physical stimulation leading to hard dick have become rusty. New grooves that are now 'porn on screen leads to hard dick' have replaced them. So you need to literally retrain your brain and penis to get aroused by different (mental alone) imagery and thoughts. However, sex is both mental and physical so I see no harm in touching yourself either, unlike a lot of the hardcore no porn/no fap people like to profess.

                        And a key benefit is that using self stimulation along with only mental imagery helps to initially anchor getting hard with sexual thoughts. At first it took me the combo of mental sexual imagery/thoughts along with physical stimulation to work up to a full erection. And it took A LOT longer than with the aid of porn at first. Also at first, either one alone was not enough, I would get bored before getting hard with just mental fantasy, or just physical stimulation (blank mind). After practicing for a couple weeks, and it truly did feel like practicing in the true sense of the work, I noticed that either one alone quickly kick started the arousal process so that when I would think a sexual thought I would feel the blood start flowing and then quickly feel the urge to start touching my dick too. If I just happened to find myself mindlessly grabbing my junk while laying on the couch, the blood would quickly start flowing and I found myself quickly thinking of sex and fantasies. Now either one alone leads to quick erections. Falling asleep thinking about sex, i get erect. My pants are for somehow rubbing my dick in a way, the blood starts flowing. It's a beautiful thing. (to note, a real woman would obviously be the best form of physical stimulation, but as those of us know that have gone through this, a real woman can lead to too much performance anxiety and believe it or not distraction to retrain this Mind-Penis Link, so working with it by yourself will get it back so that when you are actually with a woman, it is automatic)

                        Another long one, but I feel the Mind-Penis link is key. Physical and Mental stimulation each having a 'hand' in this. However, porn is some sort of bastardized permutation of the two without including all aspects of both like a real woman would, or your hand and mind would, so this should be cut out.

                        Anybody else got any thoughts on the 'Mind-Penis Link' ?

                        TennisBalls I hardly ever post here but your comment made me log in and reply. I am having some ED issues, likely caused by watching porn for years and cutting of the Mind-Penis link in the process, however I also feel I never truly cut if off (the link that is ) because I could and can always get an erection just from touch and the mind. I recently started No Fap (5 days ago) but I think I am just going to not look at porn and build up the Mind-Penis Link. However I am not sure about ejaculating because I really want rock hard 10/10 random erections and morning wood back, yet I had a Wet Dream 2 days ago didn't dream about sex though just woke up with a wet patch so my penile issues really cant be as bad as I believe them to be, I'm 18 by the way.
                        I agree with what you say, over time if you just work on your EQ improving and masturbate softly using your hand and mind eventually during the day you will see a hot girl and be so aroused because you haven't see such as sexy woman is so long not even pixels = boner.

                        Great Post.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I gotta agree with Raccoon Man, your post about the Mind-Penis link makes a lot of sense to me TennisBalls. It's actually something I've contemplated here and there regarding my issues, which are a little bit different but have overlapping characteristics.

                          Tonight while driving home I tried visualizing a girl I'd just seen at the bar and like you said (and as I've realized myself) it wasn't necessarily easy or natural but honestly it didn't take long to sort of get going with the visualization and boom I started getting blood flow. This is the missing link in my own healing. I've gotten so much healthier through diet and yoga and I've found much control and awareness over my mental problems through meditation and cognitive behavioral therapy...and now I am finally ready to rebuild the connections that have been getting cut off for so many years by porn OCD and anxiety...ultimately all of which is rooted in fear which goes against my true nature.

                          All I've got to say is thank you for sharing because I really had a light bulb go off in my head tonight and I feel empowered that my healing is going to take another step forward.

                          MUCHO GRACIAS

                          Voodoo
                          "The website below is my story and insight on recovering from 11 years of debilitating sexual dysfunction. Underneath your issues you are already healed. Remember that. I hope it helps. Much love fellas."
                          -Voodoo
                          therebornman.tumblr.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DiMarco View Post
                            TennisBalls, Great thread and input.

                            Can you give us a no nonsense breakdown of the supplements (exact brand, dosage, and manner/times in which you take them) that you believe substantively benefit you in this area? I have heard Boron increases free test, fyi.
                            Sure,

                            I first of all try to eat a healthy diet, somewhat paleo style with a lot of healthy fats from steak, olive oil, fish oil, coconut oil, butter, etc. and then lots of veggies

                            For supplements I keep it pretty simple

                            1. Vitamin D3 + Vitamin k2 (mk-4 version)

                            Vitamin D3 I take 2,000-5,000 iu a day and vitamin k2 i take usually 1mg a day sometimes 2mg. I have not gotten sick in almost 2 years since incorporating this into my routine and I know it is this because I took all the other supplements except boron prior to this. Vitamin D is super cheap, I just use the walmart brand because it doesn't matter. Vitamin k I switch up sometimes life extensions, sometimes whats called high quality butter oil.

                            2. Magnesium oil - just spray about 5 sprays on myself after the shower everyday

                            3. Boron-I take a product called Tri-Boron Plus by twinlabs but might switch when this is gone because it contains calcium and from my research supplemental calcium is not needed. Boron makes me teenager horny. I take 6 caps of this a day for 3 days then take 2 days off

                            4. L-arginine or Citrulline - this really helps keep my blood pressure normal and if I take a lot prior to sex gives good erections

                            5. Desiccated Liver tabs - good source of B-vitamins and A

                            6. I rotate and cycle adaptogens - tribulus, ginseng, ashwaghanda, ginseng, rhodiola

                            I also take a break from all supplements for a week or two every couple months, and whenever I think of it I take vitamin C and occasionally a multi vitamin.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I forgot one other staple I take everyday is a swig of braggs apple cider vinegar. Nothing has improved my digestion more.

                              One other supp that helps with keeping blood pressure down and will make you super horny is celery seed extract. I cycle this in sometimes too.


                              That's really it. I keep it simple after having experimented with countless supplements costing hundreds of dollars and finding which ones I truly felt a benefit from

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