Player Haters

[Toadstool Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toadstool]

A thread has been made https://www.pegym.com/forums/gym/383...ps-skills.html for people to discuss seduction skills and ways to pick up women. This naturally caught the attention of resident PUAs (i.e. me) to list field reports (a synopses of a pick up) and personal thoughts on how to go about a successful pickup. We also share our knowledge we pick up from books or videos we've seen.

Now, you can't have the discussion of how to pick women up, without someone hating on you for it. Like, for whatever reason, showing interest in women is okay. But actively pursuing them is a terrible thing.
http://i.imgur.com/Fug1p.jpg
Whether these guys are jealous, uninformed, trolling, or whatever, they're distracting the thread from its real topic.

So I made THIS thread for all of you player haters to come spit your furious anger onto us. In return, I want something from you.

There is one rule you will follow:
-No name calling My feelings are sensitive guys, play nice! No, seriously - This is an adult website, so please act your age and don't be the doofus who calls people names. It's lame.

[Toadstool Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toadstool]

Their minds are becoming the same. Like I mentioned, social programming is toxic. And I know you'll agree when I say that one of the reasons society is crumbling because there is no variety of minds. I want you to have a moment with yourself and ask yourself "Am I truly free? Am I truly thinking for myself, or just doing what I am expected to think?" Because everyone can think about picking up girls, the related frustration, bills, jobs, etc. But who really questions their existence, their role in life, their mind's potential, things like that? Thinking beyond what we're being fed, coming up with different answers, developing our inner selves, things that actually matter for us.

If we all did that then yes there would be a variety. Who else questions our behavior and thinking patterns and realise that we're all being toyed with? What I see is conformity and a bunch of hopeless, misguided people trying to be themselves because they are TOLD what to do and how to do it.

And all this "game" thing about picking up women? It is a form of manipulation - giving inputs to their already programmed minds and getting the output you want. Nothing real about it, nothing "fun" or thrilling, or new. How am I supposed to give my unconditional love to people like that? That's not love, that'd be my attention.

I don't know what you mean by society is crumbling because of a lack of variety of minds. I'm at university right now, and I'm surrounded by a variety of minds. There are engineers, and artists, there are writers or painters, there are chemists and biologists... and there are students lost and confused in life and are looking for somewhere to belong. I don't know where you're getting the lack of variety from.
There's variety everywhere.
We all have things in common, however. That brings us together. But if we were all the same, life would be boring. If we all believed the same thing, then I wouldn't have had to make this thread.

Yes - I am truly free. There has never been a society as free as ours. I can do whatever I want, say whatever I believe, study and learn whatever I choose. I am free to participate in any sort of protest, I can go to parliament and talk to politicians about things I don't agree with. I am able to make decisions on my own. Who guides my hand? I do.

I think about pickup because I love the social aspect about it. It's changed my life. I meet the most interesting people now, just randomly in the street.
Procreating is part of why I'm here. It's engraved into the meaning of my existence.
But do you mean career-wise? As in, how will I contribute to society? Is that the meaning of life you're looking for? Or, what? Your post is very vague and you're under the impression I know what you're thinking.
It's a big question though. And, yes, I think about it continuously. I try to identify my strengths and my skills so that I can gear myself towards a life that involves these things. I try to identify my interests and see how they can relate. I think about my ideas of success and try to fit it all in.
I'm not quite sure how that relates to pickup though. I get the feeling you're picturing me as some guy who has no other interests but fucking.

Who's toying with who? With all of the vagueness of your post, I get the feeling you're toying with me. Misguided hopeless people all conforming to be individuals because they're being told to?
Nobody told me to be anything. Who told you to be who you are? Are you trapped as who you are? If you're unhappy, have you looked at ways to change it?
Being an individual is a form of freedom.
I really don't get what you're talking about Hanma.

You bring up how I'm manipulating someone who's brainwashed? They're programmed to do something (like what, exactly?) and I somehow am profiteering off their... brainwashed mind?
I don't get it.
Has there been some conspiracy against women that I'm unaware about? Have you guys left me out on an all-male conference about how we can reprogram the female brain into doing our bidding?
Or is it that society has bombarded us with so much sexualized media that women have no choice but to have sex with me?

I feel really silly right now because I made this huge reply, basically saying..
Niggawut??

[Hockey_NY Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hockey_NY]

Wow...I think I'm in your head

I appreciate your time and dedication to myself. I also want to thank God and....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8-_aJ1BiFE

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYA9DaSIddo

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

Others can refer to my posts here
:https://www.pegym.com/forums/gym/383...tml#post442375
https://www.pegym.com/forums/gym/383...tml#post442365

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Oh god you are kiddding, you are attempting to make pua sound high minded??? Mind you I suppose the drug addicts are worse .
I am not going to waste much time with either group. Both groups attempt to garner respect by twisted internal logic, stick to your own threads and I am happy enough.

[TheSperminator Member of the Month Oct 12 Find all posts View Profile Close TheSperminator]

I saw too late that this thread was already made. In the seduction thread you can read my response to Hamna and Hockey .. Please answer in this thread, and like toad already said stay on-topic in the seduction thread from now on thanks

-Brainsick

[Toadstool Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toadstool]

My my, people get so angry when we talk about seducing their girls.
As though they were little princesses that we are brainwashing. Our dark magic spell that their small, simple, fragile minds cannot ward off.

Women WANT men to come up to them. Why do you think they go to clubs? Why do you think they dress sexy? I'm imagining you guys to be thinking that mascara and a sexy black dress popped on her body by accident. She wants me to notice her and approach her and take her back to my place.
According to pegasus, this is twisted logic. HMMMM, okay then, I'm twisted... and women like it. Oh well! I'm the winner in the end.
Do you know how many girls cheat on their boyfriends?
But you guys probably think that that's not the girls fault. It's the PUA's for seducing her. That innocent little girl who doesn't know anything about the world and then some manipulative man with mind-control (or something??? How do we manipulate them?) comes up and SNATCHES them.
I get why a father would hate us. But why would other guys scorn the opportunity to have any girl he wants?
Why get a big dick if you don't plan to use it?

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

You know it's funny, because I sometimes wonder why sex is said to be one of the most important things in life. I was a loner until I was about 17, and it never really went away. I have more friends now and I hang out with other people a lot more, but I still do a lot of things by myself and I'm used to being with myself. One result of this is that I do a lot of self-reflection. I reevaluate my self-perception all the time--to the point that sometimes I'll just sit for hours sorting through my thoughts and actions to determine my drives, the causes of my behavior, my goals, and my values. It gets to a point sometimes where I feel bogged down by it, so I have to write it out (which works out because I can go back later and read what I wrote and see how I've changed).

I've found that my Self is divided. Even when I'm upset or frustrated or depressed, there is a calm, rational side of me that I can feel watching me and analyzing--even judging--me. That side of me thinks I'm silly to look for a trench coat and some fancy clothes to wear (I've never found one, but I've never actually needed one.) "Why bother spending money on things you don't need, will never use, and don't truly want?"; it was laughing at me for the month and a half of my life that I put creams and proactiv and toners on my face, worried about my body hair, ("it's uncomfortable, you can't touch your face without messing it up, and you're not bold enough and don't want the image enough to put on enough stuff that it actually makes a difference--why are you bothering?"
On a side note, girls wear makeup for other girls, not for boys. I've been told that, and I've also been told similar things about the way they dress - from females. There are times where you know that the other girls are judging you because you're not wearing makeup--it's like leaving the house without brushing your hair. They know you didn't take the time to finish getting ready. BUT WHO CARES? WHY DOES IT MATTER WHAT THEY THINK? It doesn't. Defy the push of what they themselves have defined as "femininity").

Anyway. If I'm depressed, my rational side tells me to reevaluate my values. The things you value are what determine your mood AND your vulnerabilities. Why do people get so angry when other people burn their country's flag or their religious text? All that's doing is letting the burning side achieve its goal: to upset you. Why would you give someone else that power over you?

The negative part of this is that so much self-reflection causes over self-involvement and self-consciousness, I think.

This makes me wonder: do other people take this much time to figure out who they are and how they work? Do other people truly want to understand themselves and others and alter their behavior, not for other people's sake, but for the sole purpose of becoming the person they want to become?

I think the majority do not.

But what do they do when they're alone? How can people be content to watch TV for hours and spend so little time untangling the complexity that is human emotions and interactions? I think that a lot of people don't care. A portion of society pushes members to conform and some people do because they recognize their animalistic need to be part of the pack, to be accepted into the group. I think people feel inadequate to conform because conformity requires effort but they also feel inadequate as humans when they recognize that they aren't conforming automatically since they as humans are imperfect--but I think they don't recognize that both the desire to conform and the resistance they feel towards conformity are due to their inadequacies. This results, not in an examination of WHY they feel and in fact ARE inadequate, but in a frustration with the push for conformity as the most obvious reason they can find for their inadequacies without looking deeper. And so you get the campaign for "acceptance", where everyone is viewed as "unique" and people are encouraged to embrace their natural tendencies, desires, and body--without realizing that everything NATURALLY deteriorates when void of external influences. But the Acceptors choose to embrace that deterioration instead of recognizing that other than the basic, animalistic tendencies, even the "natural" qualities in people are a result of society's influences on them as they grow up! So what we end up with is Conformists who encourage people to change themselves in mostly superficial ways or for superficial reasons (e.g., encouraging physical fitness not for health and ability, but to look hot), and Acceptors who encourage apathy when it comes to appearance and lifestyle, but still don't encourage stimulation of any sort or any recognition of innate inadequacies.

So whichever group people fall into, they do not take the time to examine their Self and decide what sort of person they want to be and try to change that. The Conformists are too busy focusing on their superficiality and the Acceptors are telling you to be happy with who you are--and that you shouldn't "change yourself for anyone else". But why not change yourself for yourself? It does reach a point where old habits are hard to break, but that just requires exercises in self-control as well as an evaluation of outcomes and a ranking of your desire for various outcomes to occur. Nothing is permanent. Whether you choose to conform or accept yourself, you WILL change as you age. New stimuli--new people, new places, new events, new gadgets and concepts and everything that is thrown at you in this age of information-- will change you, even if you live in the same shitty town with the same shitty friends your whole life. It's inevitable. And not only do we react to stimuli, we ourselves ARE stimuli!
Everything we do affects other people and causes them to react in some way. But instead of recognizing that a person WILL change and controlling those external stimuli to culture a Self that reflects outwardly (in behavior more than appearance) the person's values AND causes that individual to stimulate others in a way that will encourage the right reaction, people choose to leave themselves undeveloped and vulnerable to every whim their society and environment has to offer.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer said:

"If you set out to seek freedom,
Then learn above all things
To govern your soul and your senses,
For fear that your passions and longings
May lead you away from the path you should follow.
Chaste be your mind and your body, and both in subjection;
Obediently, steadfastly seeking the aim set before them;
Only through discipline may a man learn to be free."

He was speaking from a religious standpoint, but I think it holds true even without considering religion. How can we expect to be free when we don't carefully consider the person we are becoming and direct ourselves through life? Living a wayward life may SOUND like freedom, but I think it's not because I do not consider being a slave to one's emotions and whims to be freedom. Controlling yourself may sound like it is not freedom because we don't equate "control" with freedom, but I think the choice becomes letting external stimuli control you (whether you recognize it or not), or choosing to control your Self's response to those stimuli, as well as controlling (to some extent) WHICH stimuli you expose your Self to.
I like the idea of Buddhism that suffering is caused by cravings, so you must liberate yourself from desire in order to free yourself. I don't agree with it completely because I think that desire causes a lot of what drives you to improve yourself--but I look at it that when we feel unhappy, we should examine what unfulfilled desire is causing our unhappiness so that we can consider whether the end state of that desire is indeed desirable.

So what do you do if you are not spending time culturing your Self to be what you want to be? You watch TV and get absorbed in a search for "Love". Somewhere inside, you recognize that a life devoted to material things or a deity that somehow never really answers your prayers has no meaning. You buy into the notion that having another person in your life is the ultimate goal, that that niggling feeling of inadequacy is due to the fact that you are not a complete person in and of yourself--rather, you are one half of a person and that other half is out in the world somewhere, waiting for you to find it so that the two of you can complete each other. So instead of developing your Self to become a whole, you look for another person to fill the empty parts of your life.

But a lot of the other people buy into the notion that they are young and their purpose is sex. They absorb all the sexuality the media throws at them and decide that the way to "enjoy" life is to have as much sexual stimulation as possible. So they fuck because humans are animals with a drive to reproduce. But how do they attract another fuckable person? The females dress up to highlight their sexuality and the men compete to win attention from the females. But traditional values still hold some sway in these rituals and the females like to pretend that they are liberated sexually, but still cannot fully commit to fucking strange men for fear of being labelled a "whore". So they set up the rules that determine "The Game" and men (who acknowledge that, if their existence is to fuck, then they will fuck as many vaginas as possible. Society embraces this idea, as evidenced by the lack of masculine equivalents to "slut" and its variations) respond to it by manipulating the women into bed. The women use the manipulation as a shift of responsibility so that they don't have to work to find a partner and they can boost their self-esteem by saying that the male had to work to get her.

Eventually, the second group joins the first group in channeling their internal drive for "completeness", as well as a horror of being alone (since they never took the time to develop themselves into someone they enjoy being alone with) into searching for someone else to fill their empty lives. Society and its media feed off of this and continue to encourage this state because they know that that is what the majority of their members are looking for. And so it becomes a vicious cycle.

Society is crumbling? Hmm, after thinking about it more, yes and no. I think it's just becoming full of dull people. I think the college kids in the "Occupy ___" protests are a result of this, because they expect external influences (the government) to provide jobs for them, instead of taking the time to recognize that they made a bad decision (getting a degree in history) and they have to reevaluate their values (being wealthy or having a high-paying job, driving instead of using public transportation, living alone, having pets, spending money on clothes and alcohol) in order to understand that there ARE jobs available and they CAN live off minimum wages. They won't be comfortable in the standard sense, but they need to decide what they consider comfort and change their perspectives. But they've spent their whole lives (all 22 years, oooh) responding solely to external stimuli and expecting other people (their parents, the school system, the job market, the economy) to determine their lives. They are no longer independent beings and until they recognize it, they won't be able to fix themselves.

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

My my, people get so angry when we talk about seducing their girls.
As though they were little princesses that we are brainwashing. Our dark magic spell that their small, simple, fragile minds cannot ward off.

Women WANT men to come up to them. Why do you think they go to clubs? Why do you think they dress sexy? I'm imagining you guys to be thinking that mascara and a sexy black dress popped on her body by accident. She wants me to notice her and approach her and take her back to my place.
According to pegasus, this is twisted logic. HMMMM, okay then, I'm twisted... and women like it. Oh well! I'm the winner in the end.
Do you know how many girls cheat on their boyfriends?
But you guys probably think that that's not the girls fault. It's the PUA's for seducing her. That innocent little girl who doesn't know anything about the world and then some manipulative man with mind-control (or something??? How do we manipulate them?) comes up and SNATCHES them.
I get why a father would hate us. But why would other guys scorn the opportunity to have any girl he wants?
Why get a big dick if you don't plan to use it?

Hanma - did you link me up to some lame comedian as your response to my post?
are you telling me that you're developing a philosophy on life based off THAT GUY? I have no argument against that one, my friend. You win this round. gg.

Doug is crude, but he doesn't mess around with his words. He is direct, he is correct, he is funny and he is bitter. This causes him to speak out against this cycle of finding someone, fucking, staying, harvesting the person, finding the next person, etc.

Oh and I am aware that girls cheat on boys, and from what I have seen - and this may be biased - more than boys cheat on girls. This leads me to think that females are becoming more provocative and libidinous - or they HAVE been like this but before the restrictions on females were stricter.
So it's not so much of whose fault is it for causing the girls to cheat on their partners, but their own weak will and lack of attention to their logic that causes them to become distrustful. You should listen to the excuses they come up with. And I'm not talking about the teenage relationships, I mean grown up women too. In their 20's and 30's. At what age do they finally realise that not controlling their promiscuity will backfire eventually? When will they mature up and see through the person and the intentions?

Oh and by the way, I stopped PE. I might come back, I don't know. My interest in females have dropped significantly. I don't see them as trustworthy and mature - not as much as I used to. And now when I get the bitterness away from me, it would be a huge burden off me. To finally let go. And to think differently. Gain inner strength. Right now my will is weak and I don't have much confidence in my ability to rise beyond this. But I know that this is temporary and PUA, attraction, seduction ... are all hindrances.

[Rando Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rando]

Interesting posts Hanma, I haven't had time to fully absorb everything you've written, but I skimmed most of it and think I have the general idea of what you're saying. I think a slight bit of background on myself might better clarify my position:

I'm late 20s, I grew up in the conservative midwest USA in a religious family. I was taught that as a male, my life's path was to go to college, find a woman and marry in my 20s, have 2.5 kids living in suburbia, work for 45 years, retire, and die. Somewhere along the way (I think about the age of 20), I really started questioning everything and realized that that path sounded boring as fuck. I gave up religion, I gave up the stable job that I could've easily had, I gave up living in the boring midwest with conformist, mostly judgmental people, and decided that conformity was not for me. I am self-employed with probably the most non-conformist job possible. I decided to move 10k miles from home for a year or two just for a lark. So believe me when I say that I understand the disdain for the conformists who seem like robots who are doing everything society tells them to do and they look down on anyone who dare stray from that path.

I can totally relate to your comment about it being odd that people get so upset about things like flag burning or the burning of religious texts. One of my life philosophies is that you should never believe in any one thing too strongly b/c when you do, you are willing to do awful things to defend your beliefs. That goes for country, race, religion, even stuff like sports teams. Look at the disgusting thing sports fans sometimes do to opposing fans just b/c they happen to support a different team. It's even worse for the other things, people are willing to start wars over religion or patriotism.

The one thing I do struggle with is that society is set up to reward the conformists. In order to get ahead, you have to be willing to play the game, so to speak. If you want to get girls, then there are basically rules involved that you have to follow to have much success. You might get lucky here and there, but basically any womanizer is just really good at playing the game. I always used to be the "nice" guy and yes I realize I probably took it too far and went into supplicative "bitch" mode, but I can tell you that being myself did me no favors with women. Over the past couple years, I guess I've dipped a bit into conformist territory b/c I've been hitting the gym, reading pick up material, working on improving my confidence, figuring out all the random social conventions that I always thought (and still do) were idiotic and pointless mainly b/c while I do agree that many of the material things society values are ultimately empty, I'd still like to be the charismatic, personable guy that can win over the room and generally has tons of options with women.

You sound quite cynical, and yes I've been there myself too. I've had the "woe is me" attitude b/c it seems like everything is basically set up to benefit women in society. Men are basically expendable, emotionless drones who bust their asses to raise the family and females are precious commodities to be treated like delicate flowers. I understand the cynicism, but I've really tried to ditch that aspect of myself b/c ultimately I think it is pretty unhealthy. Yes there are a lot of women out there who are bitches and will take advantage of you at the drop of the hat, but there are also many guys like that as well. There are also tons of men and women out there who are kind-hearted (albeit selfish as we pretty much all are to some degree) as well, and I like to make it a point to find the good in people as well.

I also think the constant introspection can be very unhealthy as well. You don't need to be constantly reassessing your values anytime you feel depressed, just focus on doing what makes you happy. Take up some hobbies, join some sports teams or whatever and have a good time around both men and women. I don't like to spend too much time thinking about my values b/c I'd like to think my values are that I have no set values, if that makes sense. I guess I do have a couple core tenets such as: question everything, don't accept something just b/c society says to do it, don't believe too strongly in any one thing, and just do what makes me happy, but beyond that I'd like to think I'm flexible enough that there's no point fleshing out my "values" b/c they can change on a moment's notice. My views on politics or religion for example change often based on things I read or hear from others. I think the key is to just be flexible and open to new ideas and experiences and above all, just have fun. Beyond that, I think a balance is probably best when it comes to "conformity". Yes, I will do my own thing when it benefits me, but I will also be willing to "play the game" when it comes time to do that as well. I think so long as you aren't blinded by these rare instances of conformity and tell yourself "yes I'm following the crowd, but only b/c it benefits me" then you won't have to worry about becoming just another conformist.

[pterodactyl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close pterodactyl]

Good post Rando =)

Let me preface by saying tha i havent read this whole thread. That being said heres my view on "the game". Its easy as hell. Go to a bar or club, spout off some shit that makes you look good, dance well, have some sex. Sure you have to dress sharp and sometimes have a nice body but really thats all there is to it. First chick doesnt go for it then move on to the next. Chances are you are going to get some. Club girls get off on that shit just as much as guys do. They are players too. Why try to "protect" someone who doesnt want to be protected? You dont like it or your girl went for it then dont be in it. Dont be with that type of girl. You dont see "players at thlibrary or at the park do you? Not very often. Its not like those girls arent willing or are being taken advantage of. My advice is to live and let live. Be with who you want to be but dont ever try and mold someone or change them because you want to "make them better" or "protect" them. They arent you and they arent yours.

[HotRod Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close HotRod]

I think there's some pretty obnoxious stuff in the "seduction community," but there's another side to it and that's the majority side which is really nothing more than a lot of regular guys trying to get over the stuff that typically makes being a guy painful. It has a lot more to do with improving social interactions and really understanding women and developing some compassion for their desires too.

On its highest plane it's about learning to share an experience both men and women want. At the same time it's about getting out from under oppressive social constraints that limit our life experience. It's not a "game." It's not a manipulation or anything like that. The only guys I ever pay attention to are on the RSD team. Some of Tyler's (Owen's) vids are pretty amazing.

[Rando Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rando]

HotRod, PUA is like anything in life, it can be very good for a lot of guys, or it can be twisted and can become something very manipulative and dirty. I think essentially you're saying the same thing. I agree that PUA can be a great thing for a lot of guys, b/c most guys don't truly understand how social interactions with women work.

It's funny you mention Tyler Durden b/c I'm actually watching his DVDs as we speak. One thing he talks about is how social conditioning impacts how we pick up girls. If you watch a romantic comedy, the hero is usually some sappy guy who spills his guts to the girl of his dreams and gets the girl. There's no chance in hell any of the stuff you see in romantic comedies would ever work for the average Joe. The fact is, a great deal of this stuff is very counter-intuitive. For example, if you're interested in a girl, you can't make it LOOK like you're interested. On the surface, that doesn't make sense, but when you understand social dynamics it all becomes more clear.

[Hockey_NY Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hockey_NY]

I just feel this type of "game" feeds on non-genuine and shallow relationships that don't last.

I don't see why people just can't be real and true to themselves and with each other. It's like these guys have to resort to these embarrassing antics and gimmicks to get laid. But I guess you do what you have to do.

I also will say that in fairness, there is a fine line between a lot of PUA stuff and regular behavior for some people. Some people use PUA techniques w/o knowing. I take more issue with people who actually study it and then abandon their natural persona in exchange for BS.

Way to stay cocky and arrogant, Toad. You sound like a real winner. Next time plead the fifth and let Hanma speak for you. Usually the people who talking the biggest game such as yourself, are simply dreamers and full of it. You sound like a real tool with your "There is not enough time in the day for me for all the ladies I can get with and have sex with...I have to pick and choose daily." Be proud, Toad.