Do humans value pain more

[Big Al AdministratorPEGym EditorMale Enhancement Coach Rep.PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Big Al]

Okay, I am back from my month long experiment with people's reaction to non duality.

it's just like what Al said, people don't react well to it. Most of them anyway. The topics ranged from ugly and beautiful people, love and hate, tall and short people and most interesting of all, people who do things to make themselves look better than others. I tried talking to them in this "new" kind of way, to not only think outside the box but to look at the box as a whole.
Their reactions were mostly unfavourable towards me. They indirectly proved my point that everything is relative, by sticking to their original ideas while scrutinising their ideas' relationship with the opposites (if that makes any sense).

It's weird really. But hey, I wouldn't feel so smart if it weren't for dumb people.

Who is taming the ego? Who is the ego leading?
I wouldn't have my sense of self, or the idea of who I am, if there were no other people to compare myself to. You and I are the self, and the persona we put on is simply the means of identifying ourselves in this social situation which we have created. I could be Big Al, but I find being Hanma is much easier for me So, you can control yourself; desires and actions, but letting this ego tame itself is a very arduous job.

VERY IMPORTANT- If you study this subject in detail you will find that there seems to be MANY different interpretations/paths that you can opt to take. This whole subject should NOT be taken lightly nor should it be something that you plan on taking up as a hobby or as part of a temporary experiment. Confronting the darkest part of yourself can be the most traumatic thing that you do, and if you're not prepared for it and/or you try to "shortcut" your way into it it can be extremely unsettling and even destructive to your mental well-being.

The process towards which you pursue your personal ideal is a continuous one. It's agreed by most that pursue this path that control over your "animal" self is vital. Also key is how you feel and respond to others that may not share your POV. You have to remember that our current "world" is set up to cater to the most base of human needs, and this truly does very little to help others towards any higher forms of self-development- actually the reverse is true.

If you attempt to command people into seeing your POV, then you'll have failed to see the irony in what you're trying to do. A MUCH better way is to become the living example of your ideals. Again, this is an ongoing process, and as a flesh and blood human being you shouldn't expect your work to be "perfect"- though "self perfection" is indeed the goal.

The most VITAL part of all of this is how YOU perceive YOURSELF. If you "hate" yourself you can't expect others to see you in a positive light without somehow hating them as well. This goes a ways towards explaining why those that suffer from self-loathing often engage in self-destructive behaviors and trap themselves into living in their lies.

As to "who" does the guiding, that would be open to interpretation. This is also the basis for just about all of the religious schisms that exist today- when it should be what unites us.

Pretty much, yeah. Or thinking that we somehow make a huge difference in the world. No we don't. The whole world is going where it wants to anyway. Or that the world pushes us around and doesn't care for us. What nonsense.

I wholeheartedly disagree! Unless you live apart from others in all ways, you will inevitably have to interact with them. You can choose to act as someone who will do good in spite of all of the evil you see, or you can devolve into cynicism and allow yourself to ignore or become a part of the evil yourself. Also, not doing good for fear of being unappreciated or even despised isn't going to do you any good either, since you choose inaction due to fear and your belief that you make no difference in your world. How would you know that that one act that you choose to make doesn't change the world.

Remember, a belief in your own abilities is just as important as your intent. You claim that you've been at the practice of "non-duality" for a month, but how much of it was an effort to compare yourself to others (again, that is duality), and how much if it was an attempt to understand where they were coming from and why they thought the way they do? Further distilled- do you revel in feeling "smarter" than those less advantaged than yourself, or does it hurt you that they're indulging in self-destructive ignorance?

There are over 7 BILLION humans on the face of the Earth. How many humans (or actions) do you think it would take to effect a positive change that would ripple throughout the entire population.

That's why Hindus have the concept of "passionless actions" and the Taoists "living in the moment". It's so damn tough, man. If I do a good deed, naturally I will feel good about myself.
If I do more good deeds, helping out many people at once, then I would feel even better. Even if I do something genuinely good, why should I not feel good?

Then the question become one of why you're doing those deeds. I think part of the key is in developing a proper balance (there's that word again ) If there's something that I've discovered about helping people is that it's a two way street- there appears to be a feedback loop of sorts at work with this.

An example: despite all I've learned about the subject of "male enhancement" over the years, very little of what I know would have been possible without others actually verifying the results- and sometime even improving upon the original idea(s). There's also the joy of knowing/seeing those who were once saddled with crippling self doubts/loathing go on to CONQUER those demons- and sometimes go on to help others that have been in similar situations.

I suppose I don't have enough empathy.

Just like any other trait- how badly do you want to develop empathy, and why? Part of why the path towards improvement is difficult is that it's often paradoxical. Your development sometimes requires your being both subjective AND objective at the same time. Are you able to help others to the point to where you may be forced to take on some of their pain- while being strong/wise enough to not allow yourself to get lost in that pain (thereby rendering the situation into one where now TWO entities now need help)?

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

VERY IMPORTANT- If you study this subject in detail you will find that there seems to be MANY different interpretations/paths that you can opt to take. This whole subject should NOT be taken lightly nor should it be something that you plan on taking up as a hobby or as part of a temporary experiment. Confronting the darkest part of yourself can be the most traumatic thing that you do, and if you're not prepared for it and/or you try to "shortcut" your way into it it can be extremely unsettling and even destructive to your mental well-being.

Oh I already know my darkest part, I keep having thoughts - good and bad. But that's all they are - thoughts. I just don't fully experience my darkest part.

The process towards which you pursue your personal ideal is a continuous one. It's agreed by most that pursue this path that control over your "animal" self is vital. Also key is how you feel and respond to others that may not share your POV. You have to remember that our current "world" is set up to cater to the most base of human needs, and this truly does very little to help others towards any higher forms of self-development- actually the reverse is true.

Well, there's a lot of things in this world that can be your guides to inner development. The only factors that enable you to learn is your willingness and quickness of mind. For example, images, sensations, and spiritual places (ley lines) seem to be the common ones. If we didn’t become ignorant because of the troublesome modern lives, the revolution wouldn’t be that much fun.

If you attempt to command people into seeing your POV, then you'll have failed to see the irony in what you're trying to do. A MUCH better way is to become the living example of your ideals. Again, this is an ongoing process, and as a flesh and blood human being you shouldn't expect your work to be "perfect"- though "self perfection" is indeed the goal.

Hey, I tell them, “I have nothing to sell.” Just like a wise person speaks because he has something to say, I say; unlike the fool who speaks because he has to say something. Not blowing my own trumpet obviously. Also, does perfection really exist? I mean that is an objective view isn’t it? Since we are the universe itself, where is the imperfection?!
I know where it is … it’s explained over here!

The most VITAL part of all of this is how YOU perceive YOURSELF. If you "hate" yourself you can't expect others to see you in a positive light without somehow hating them as well. This goes a ways towards explaining why those that suffer from self-loathing often engage in self-destructive behaviors and trap themselves into living in their lies.

As to "who" does the guiding, that would be open to interpretation. This is also the basis for just about all of the religious schisms that exist today- when it should be what unites us.

I find that strangely amusing you know.

I wholeheartedly disagree! Unless you live apart from others in all ways, you will inevitably have to interact with them. You can choose to act as someone who will do good in spite of all of the evil you see, or you can devolve into cynicism and allow yourself to ignore or become a part of the evil yourself. Also, not doing good for fear of being unappreciated or even despised isn't going to do you any good either, since you choose inaction due to fear and your belief that you make no difference in your world. How would you know that that one act that you choose to make doesn't change the world.

Hmm, good point. Why didn’t I see this before?

Remember, a belief in your own abilities is just as important as your intent. You claim that you've been at the practice of "non-duality" for a month, but how much of it was an effort to compare yourself to others (again, that is duality), and how much if it was an attempt to understand where they were coming from and why they thought the way they do? Further distilled- do you revel in feeling "smarter" than those less advantaged than yourself, or does it hurt you that they're indulging in self-destructive ignorance?

Well of course I compared myself to them at first, but that was an initial stage you see. Even though I said that I know who and what I am because of the contrast with others around me. But that’s assuming that I am inherently different from other people. I’m not. Ultimately I am the same as them, though I still get annoyed and confused, happy and satisfied with some people. And that’s natural. Even though I understand the messages from Zen, I don’t always feel the unity (oneness) with everything. But if I were to force these special feelings, which would mean that I haven’t truly understood it. Why would you have the need to feel non duality when you already know the secret?
Although I do think about these connections when the weathers nice or when I am at the beach. Feels nice.
Anyway, I do understand where they are coming from. At first I did get annoyed when I had to explain it to them – they just wouldn’t accept or understand it – but over time I stopped being so pushy. I mean, I have nothing to sell after all. When I see someone of a “Western” mind-set stating their (incorrect ) opinion as fact, I’d have a chuckle then explain to them my point of view; if nothing gets understood I simply let it go. I don’t feel smarter (anymore) because there’s just no reason to. It’s like being a caveman and figuring out that you can use wood to create a spear besides burning it. Others will figure it out too; it’s not a breakthrough or anything. But I do marvel at the intelligence of the people who discovered things like these!
Lastly, I feel a bit sad, yeah.

There are over 7 BILLION humans on the face of the Earth. How many humans (or actions) do you think it would take to effect a positive change that would ripple throughout the entire population.

Depends on the situation … and willingness of people. I’d say a huge blast of rebellion.

Then the question become one of why you're doing those deeds. I think part of the key is in developing a proper balance (there's that word again ) If there's something that I've discovered about helping people is that it's a two way street- there appears to be a feedback loop of sorts at work with this.
An example: despite all I've learned about the subject of "male enhancement" over the years, very little of what I know would have been possible without others actually verifying the results- and sometime even improving upon the original idea(s). There's also the joy of knowing/seeing those who were once saddled with crippling self doubts/loathing go on to CONQUER those demons- and sometimes go on to help others that have been in similar situations. .

I like doing that.

Just like any other trait- how badly do you want to develop empathy, and why? Part of why the path towards improvement is difficult is that it's often paradoxical. Your development sometimes requires your being both subjective AND objective at the same time. Are you able to help others to the point to where you may be forced to take on some of their pain- while being strong/wise enough to not allow yourself to get lost in that pain (thereby rendering the situation into one where now TWO entities now need help)?

There’s no hurry. I help people because I want to, or I am able to in certain situations. Like giving some money to a beggar, or helping old folks bring their trolleys down the stairs. When I see worse situations, I do feel the need to help. I learned this from my mother. I noticed that empathy is best learned from a positive role model, and has the biggest meaning when you learn it yourself. It’s a trait people should try and understand at least.
I don’t feel their pain most of the time, but so what, I do feel the need to do something.

[Girth5 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Girth5]

like the bitch in misery.

[Big Al AdministratorPEGym EditorMale Enhancement Coach Rep.PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Big Al]

Oh I already know my darkest part, I keep having thoughts - good and bad. But that's all they are - thoughts. I just don't fully experience my darkest part.
Well, there's a lot of things in this world that can be your guides to inner development. The only factors that enable you to learn is your willingness and quickness of mind. For example, images, sensations, and spiritual places (ley lines) seem to be the common ones. If we didn’t become ignorant because of the troublesome modern lives, the revolution wouldn’t be that much fun.

The theme being pushed in much of the media and popular culture is one of either indulgence (giving in to the ego/do whatever feels good) or [not as common anymore] repression (or "killing" the ego off/denying it's effect). You rarely see talk of mastery. Mastery will require that you confront that darkest part of yourself.

Care should be taken to not conflate the word "revolution" with anything having to do with violence. I know you don't mean it in that fashion but it needs to be said- for clarity's sake.

Hey, I tell them, “I have nothing to sell.” Just like a wise person speaks because he has something to say, I say; unlike the fool who speaks because he has to say something. Not blowing my own trumpet obviously. Also, does perfection really exist? I mean that is an objective view isn’t it? Since we are the universe itself, where is the imperfection?!
I know where it is … it’s explained over here!

Perfection is something to continually strive towards. I think we as humans can feel and see glimmers of the potential towards that perfection if we care to look.

I find that strangely amusing you know.

Hmm, good point. Why didn’t I see this before?

Well of course I compared myself to them at first, but that was an initial stage you see. Even though I said that I know who and what I am because of the contrast with others around me. But that’s assuming that I am inherently different from other people. I’m not. Ultimately I am the same as them, though I still get annoyed and confused, happy and satisfied with some people. And that’s natural.

An honest, refreshing assessment. The phase you described is a very real one in the process and can be overcome, but it's one of the most dangerous phases as you can easily get trapped in ego once you achieve a certain perspective. As long as you always remember where you came from, you can keep your roots intact and strong as you make progress.

Even though I understand the messages from Zen, I don’t always feel the unity (oneness) with everything. But if I were to force these special feelings, which would mean that I haven’t truly understood it. Why would you have the need to feel non duality when you already know the secret?

It's not something that can be forced at all, though personal suffering can be something that helps you humble yourself enough to get closer to that goal. A "top down" approach does not work- and you can see material examples of the ineffectiveness of top down approaches in just about all hierarchically-based human efforts. When the title/positions/perqs become the overriding deciding factor in what you "do for a living", etc.- at the expense of doing what you're supposed to be doing (good), then you can objectively see the downside in these types of arrangements.

Although I do think about these connections when the weathers nice or when I am at the beach. Feels nice.
Anyway, I do understand where they are coming from. At first I did get annoyed when I had to explain it to them – they just wouldn’t accept or understand it – but over time I stopped being so pushy. I mean, I have nothing to sell after all. When I see someone of a “Western” mind-set stating their (incorrect ) opinion as fact, I’d have a chuckle then explain to them my point of view; if nothing gets understood I simply let it go. I don’t feel smarter (anymore) because there’s just no reason to. It’s like being a caveman and figuring out that you can use wood to create a spear besides burning it. Others will figure it out too; it’s not a breakthrough or anything. But I do marvel at the intelligence of the people who discovered things like these!
Lastly, I feel a bit sad, yeah.

As you yourself become a more effective example you won't have to "push" so hard Like we discussed before though, you should not expect any social benefits from taking that path. This has to be something that you decide to take on for self-betterment, not because you think it'll make you more "popular".

Depends on the situation … and willingness of people. I’d say a huge blast of rebellion.
I like doing that.

Great care should be taken as to whom or what this rebellion is directed towards. Before we accuse anyone or any particular group of anything, we should look into ourselves first to see if that's where we need to start with our work. You can see that a lot of folks are definitely waking up to some degree, and one of the first things that happens during this process is realization- which can result in anger at being deceived. All of this fear and anger you see growing in the world- just where is it coming from and for what end; and how much do you allow it to get to you. How much of it is fear just for fear's sake. How much of all of this negativity that we see on the news, movies, etc. would literally go away if we stopped feeding it and giving it so much of our power and attention.

You can already see the signs of destabilization, but the crucial part of this ride seems to be just getting started.

There’s no hurry. I help people because I want to, or I am able to in certain situations. Like giving some money to a beggar, or helping old folks bring their trolleys down the stairs. When I see worse situations, I do feel the need to help. I learned this from my mother. I noticed that empathy is best learned from a positive role model, and has the biggest meaning when you learn it yourself. It’s a trait people should try and understand at least.
I don’t feel their pain most of the time, but so what, I do feel the need to do something.

That is a great POV to have

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

like the bitch in misery.

You can spell misery without bitch. Learn the misery, man. Love the misery.

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

The theme being pushed in much of the media and popular culture is one of either indulgence (giving in to the ego/do whatever feels good) or [not as common anymore] repression (or "killing" the ego off/denying it's effect). You rarely see talk of mastery. Mastery will require that you confront that darkest part of yourself.

You know people who take consciousness expanding substances, like LSD and marijuana (I don't call them drugs, too cold and clinical) sometimes go into a state which would be scary to a normal person. But in reality they just see "it" for what "it" is. Not man made. They see that their ego is made up and nothing real. It could be the first stage towards self mastery, by realising certain things (like this one).

The reason why self mastery is not big in the modern/western society is that most people want to be like somebody else. Even though there is that non dualistic relationship we've talked about, this negligent attitude is what hinders these people from seeing the bigger picture.

Also self mastery is pretty damn hard so maybe people don't like it, heh.

Care should be taken to not conflate the word "revolution" with anything having to do with violence. I know you don't mean it in that fashion but it needs to be said- for clarity's sake.

"The revolution will not be televised." "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" - Gil Scott-Heron - YouTube

Perfection is something to continually strive towards. I think we as humans can feel and see glimmers of the potential towards that perfection if we care to look.

Going with this context then, the definition of perfection will have to be slightly altered. It's not being good at everything, it'd be realising your self and removing self imposed limitations.

An honest, refreshing assessment. The phase you described is a very real one in the process and can be overcome, but it's one of the most dangerous phases as you can easily get trapped in ego once you achieve a certain perspective. As long as you always remember where you came from, you can keep your roots intact and strong as you make progress.

When I think about my roots and think about the ego traps, I sometimes go into a state where I just stop thinking and experience this "absent minded" state, where I'm just (content with) tapping my fingers or smelling the roses. I still don't know what it means. A distraction probably.

It's not something that can be forced at all, though personal suffering can be something that helps you humble yourself enough to get closer to that goal. A "top down" approach does not work- and you can see material examples of the ineffectiveness of top down approaches in just about all hierarchically-based human efforts. When the title/positions/perqs become the overriding deciding factor in what you "do for a living", etc.- at the expense of doing what you're supposed to be doing (good), then you can objectively see the downside in these types of arrangements.

What if money were no object? Here's something related to this: What if money was no object? - YouTube

As you yourself become a more effective example you won't have to "push" so hard Like we discussed before though, you should not expect any social benefits from taking that path. This has to be something that you decide to take on for self-betterment, not because you think it'll make you more "popular".

Of course I'm not doing it for fame, it wouldn't work. :P Don't get me wrong though, I would punch an asshole if there was a need, or would put a stupid people in their place if their arguments were stupid. It's up to them to change their minds though.

Great care should be taken as to whom or what this rebellion is directed towards. Before we accuse anyone or any particular group of anything, we should look into ourselves first to see if that's where we need to start with our work. You can see that a lot of folks are definitely waking up to some degree, and one of the first things that happens during this process is realization- which can result in anger at being deceived. All of this fear and anger you see growing in the world- just where is it coming from and for what end; and how much do you allow it to get to you. How much of it is fear just for fear's sake. How much of all of this negativity that we see on the news, movies, etc. would literally go away if we stopped feeding it and giving it so much of our power and attention.

You can already see the signs of destabilization, but the crucial part of this ride seems to be just getting started.

If people realised how badly the banking system is fucking them up the ass, there would be a rebellion in the streets the next day - although not a particularly useful one.
Can't trust the army and police either since they seem to harm civilians on a daily basis - because they have "orders" and don't fucking think for themselves.

If there has to be a rebellion then we have to take the weapons from these bullies and create our own defense.

[Big Al AdministratorPEGym EditorMale Enhancement Coach Rep.PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Big Al]

You know people who take consciousness expanding substances, like LSD and marijuana (I don't call them drugs, too cold and clinical) sometimes go into a state which would be scary to a normal person. But in reality they just see "it" for what "it" is. Not man made. They see that their ego is made up and nothing real. It could be the first stage towards self mastery, by realising certain things (like this one).

The reason why self mastery is not big in the modern/western society is that most people want to be like somebody else. Even though there is that non dualistic relationship we've talked about, this negligent attitude is what hinders these people from seeing the bigger picture.

Also self mastery is pretty damn hard so maybe people don't like it, heh.

A very astute observation In a world full of every type of distraction and temptation you could think of- as well as some that you probably haven't- throw in some peer pressure to "conform"; self mastery is extremely difficult in these times.

Going with this context then, the definition of perfection will have to be slightly altered. It's not being good at everything, it'd be realising your self and removing self imposed limitations.

It's realizing the highest ideal and then striving towards it constantly. It can become a will and power unto itself.

When I think about my roots and think about the ego traps, I sometimes go into a state where I just stop thinking and experience this "absent minded" state, where I'm just (content with) tapping my fingers or smelling the roses. I still don't know what it means. A distraction probably.

...Or you're letting your mind take a break from all of the distractions. It sounds a lot like meditating You would be amazed at how truly connected you are to everything, and meditation can help you clear your mind so that you can focus on these connections with greater clarity.

What if money were no object? Here's something related to this: What if money was no object? - YouTube

What is it that you most value in life (aniother rhetorical statement )) WHEN a critical mass of humanity realizes that our human family is worth much, much more than mere material things like "money" (the pieces of paper- printed out of thin air and worth less than the paper it's printed on- used to ease the flow of commerce for the purposes of convenience and fractalization of material wealth), THEN things will change for the better.

It's incredible how a typical human- who is supposed to be the apex of species on this planet, could starve in a forest (or other environment) full of edibles, while the more "inferior" beasts can thrive in the very same environment! The earth is truly full of abundance, but a great many of us have conformed to expect all things [including knowledge] in prepackaged, "sanitized" forms. It's this constant extending of the convenience factor without giving it any real introspection that's harming the planet, its residents, and us as a species

Of course I'm not doing it for fame, it wouldn't work. :P Don't get me wrong though, I would punch an asshole if there was a need, or would put a stupid people in their place if their arguments were stupid. It's up to them to change their minds though.

Some folks on the path to enlightenment, after having developed their abilities to a great extent, do get very distracted by things like fame and other forms of vanity/pride. This "fork in the road" can present itself to you in a very hard to resist format- realize that it is THE greatest of seductions and traps!

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It's realizing the highest ideal and then striving towards it constantly. It can become a will and power unto itself.

Perfection is a human idea though. You can reach it in a day or you can keep searching for it until the day you die. It all depends on your mindset and goals, really.

...Or you're letting your mind take a break from all of the distractions. It sounds a lot like meditating You would be amazed at how truly connected you are to everything, and meditation can help you clear your mind so that you can focus on these connections with greater clarity.

I tried doing the Zen type of meditation. I don't have any equipment, no gongs, incense, beads, nothing. So I just focus on my breathing, keep my eyes open, hear sounds and let them be. It's hard, but I'll see what I can do.

What is it that you most value in life (aniother rhetorical statement )) WHEN a critical mass of humanity realizes that our human family is worth much, much more than mere material things like "money" (the pieces of paper- printed out of thin air and worth less than the paper it's printed on- used to ease the flow of commerce for the purposes of convenience and fractalization of material wealth), THEN things will change for the better.

Yeah I hope so. If the population wasn't so damn high we probably wouldn't need money ... well we would but it wouldn't be used and worshipped the way it is now. I mean back in cavemen times they had no money. Then later salt was used as currency since it was extremely valuable. It's like when we put dedicated value on something, it becomes a currency. Soon water will be currency, and if that happens, we're fucked.

It's incredible how a typical human- who is supposed to be the apex of species on this planet, could starve in a forest (or other environment) full of edibles, while the more "inferior" beasts can thrive in the very same environment! The earth is truly full of abundance, but a great many of us have conformed to expect all things [including knowledge] in prepackaged, "sanitized" forms. It's this constant extending of the convenience factor without giving it any real introspection that's harming the planet, its residents, and us as a species.

That's why I have been thinking in terms of a jungle boy (Mowgli) or Og the caveman recently. Like, how they survived, what they did, how they honed their senses and bodies. What would they do to defend themselves and survive. And no matter how well established I am in this cut off human society, I feel tremendously vulnerable ... if I were to survive, what the hell would I do?
You know, during my holidays, I am going to take survival training.

Some folks on the path to enlightenment, after having developed their abilities to a great extent, do get very distracted by things like fame and other forms of vanity/pride. This "fork in the road" can present itself to you in a very hard to resist format- realize that it is THE greatest of seductions and traps!

If you see Buddha on a road kill him.

[Big Al AdministratorPEGym EditorMale Enhancement Coach Rep.PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Big Al]

Perfection is a human idea though. You can reach it in a day or you can keep searching for it until the day you die. It all depends on your mindset and goals, really.

Perfection is something that we are driven to seek. The confusion and heartache comes when we mistake what constitutes "perfection". This particular part of your post is (in a sense) answered in the last part of your post.

I tried doing the Zen type of meditation. I don't have any equipment, no gongs, incense, beads, nothing. So I just focus on my breathing, keep my eyes open, hear sounds and let them be. It's hard, but I'll see what I can do.

The [rhetorical] question is, what is it that you are seeking. What is it that you hope to accomplish with your meditations. Meditation can be many things and has many benefits, but the initial benefits should be a disciplining of the mind, followed by increased mental "rest" (peace).

Yeah I hope so. If the population wasn't so damn high we probably wouldn't need money ... well we would but it wouldn't be used and worshipped the way it is now.

Not everyone "worships" the illusion of money. As I mentioned before in this thread, money has no real value except that which WE give it.

Those woes are not due to "overpopulation" (which is, IMO a detestable and highly offensive word- it makes it appear as if the problem is related to the number of humans- instead of the willful controlling of vital resources and censoring of effective solutions to problems correlated with "lack"), but on the convenience that is sought by outsourcing to others control over the establishment of "values"- not only of material possessions, currency, land, etc.- but also on real values- the very values required for you to improve yourself and to truly better your life.

Others should mean more to us than "things".

The entities pushing the "overpopulation" angle the hardest are often those with the most possessions/power/influence to lose. Because of their perceived lofty positions, they judge themselves fit to determine who should be given a chance at life- and who shouldn't. Those who don't benefit their economies or who detract from their schemes occupy the first positions in their determinations as to whom should be eliminated.

Study the origins of these concepts, and you'll learn that the "science" of eugenics has merely morphed into the more socially "acceptable" and passive term referred to as "overpopulation". Unfortunately, some of the highly unsavory eugenical practices are experiencing a resurgence throughout the world- outright in the poorer countries and more subtly in the wealthier ones.

I mean back in cavemen times they had no money. Then later salt was used as currency since it was extremely valuable. It's like when we put dedicated value on something, it becomes a currency. Soon water will be currency, and if that happens, we're fucked.

"Currency" in the financial sense is a product of a centralized system of exchange and/or control created to offset the disparities found in exchanging items/concepts/etc. of potentially inexact "value" (like in bartering). Just like an electric current flows through a circuit, every transaction can be seen as a form of current-cy exchange. It can be a relatively benign concept when all parties agree to the intrinsic value and ease afforded by establishing a particular type of currency, and malignant when it's used to steal from and to enslave others.

Your statement about water being used as a form currency has already been put into effect. Remember, the implementation of these types of schemes are often done gradually, but they can be accelerated in a "crisis" type situation. They are also not limited to things like water, though the increased economization of water and other essential resources can certainly be a very effective way of establishing control.

* * *

To avoid tainting the theme of this thread and to stop any further tangents, it might be best to limit discussing the above specific topics any further in this particular thread. Going deeper into these particular subjects is not a net of questioning that I'm personally fond of getting wrapped up in here. Just like many other maladies that affect the human condition, ALL of these ills are generated by fear. Fear on the part of those benefit the most from these negative scenarios, and fear from those who have been fooled into thinking that money is a solution (esp. the only solution) to their problems.

To cap this portion of the post, remember- the solutions to the world's problems are not going to be resolved with schemes that have only helped to have gotten it into serious trouble in the first place.

A quote attributed to a saying of Dr. Einstein's expresses this idea this up nicely:

“Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.”

Another statement that can be added to the above- they cannot be "solved" by the same entities that intentionally created them in the first place.

That's why I have been thinking in terms of a jungle boy (Mowgli) or Og the caveman recently. Like, how they survived, what they did, how they honed their senses and bodies. What would they do to defend themselves and survive. And no matter how well established I am in this cut off human society, I feel tremendously vulnerable ... if I were to survive, what the hell would I do?
You know, during my holidays, I am going to take survival training.

Many are sensing the despair that you're feeling, and your proposal is not an entirely irrational one; but it's VITAL at this stage of things that you do NOT lose your head to fear and rash decisions! NOW is when you need to be strong!

Yes- basic skills and learning how to cope with "austerity" are indeed important pursuits, but retreating into the wild and isolating yourself from the rest of humanity won't really fix anything in the long term. We actually need each other more in divisive times like these than ever before!

Perhaps humanity needs to go through this unpleasant learning process full of suffering so that we can learn how to avoid the tragic cycles of "civilization" and all it's trappings that we've gone through since the beginning of recorded history. When we can finally learn how to accurately graph where technology, efficiency, AND VALUE intersect on the graph, then we'll be better able to solve our most challenging problems in a mature, dignified, and beautiful manner.

We'll do it by using the inverse of the fear that's (so far) kept us trapped in the previous cycles.

If you see Buddha on a road kill him.

One unaccustomed to looking deeper than the surface of things would read the above as a violent act uncharacteristic of a buddha. These types of quotes and parables require an open mind and a longing to understand them to be able to fully extract and benefit from the layers of their meaning.

The context of your last quote has intrinsic esoteric meaning. It can refer to not only looking into yourself for the truth, but it also refers to not becoming complacent in your spiritual development.

[Trotsky slaying thedragon Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trotsky slaying thedragon]

Buddhism is fine for seeing the world as it is, but not fine for growth. It's only obstacles that create growth and obstacles necessarily induce pain.

It is Willpower, Cruelty, and Truth that are the components for growth. If we only seek to minimize pain then we'll miss the most creative substances necessary to existence.

I believe the key is to want something; and then kill or be killed to get it. Buddhism can be okay for personal troubles like quitting smoking or getting over irrational fears; but when it comes to life outside the self, A love of Suffering is necessary.

[Big Al AdministratorPEGym EditorMale Enhancement Coach Rep.PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Big Al]

...but when it comes to life outside the self, A love of Suffering is necessary.

One has to will themselves to improve in order to do so, and that inevitably involves going through suffering.

An effective analogy can be found in weight training- an activity where one willingly puts themselves through physical and mental (and there is a distinct mental component to the discipline required for successful training) struggle in order to be able to transcend into strength. Once you achieve high levels of strength (of any kind), it must be tempered with self-control so that it doesn't destroy you. Then, one can be able to use those strengths in a way where the effort will bear good fruit.

It's often said that love and hate are a balance (or "good" and "evil"- which is taken from man having the knowledge of good and evil- a different concept in this context of "balance"). It implies that evil contends on equal terms with good. Because the concept of evil is NOT equal to good, there can be no balance there.

The original meaning of the concept of balance is love balanced by strength/severity. The "love and hate" concept is much abused, and that destructive concept, when "believed", allows one the excuse to tolerate willful evil. One also has to be careful in thinking that balance requires each ideal to be mutually exclusive (duality), which is not really the case. It's better understood if you can visualize each ideal as extremes in range of one particular quality.

One has to be extremely careful in managing their suffering. The perversion of suffering can be extremely dangerous- one can fall in love with the pain of suffering and allow it to get out of control. It can also allow one to lose their compassion. An example- history's tyrants pervert the ideal of suffering into something they can use to impose their will on others, and they can trick themselves into believing that they're doing something good- especially when it's done under the guise of "necessity".

The acceptance of truth requires that one learns to deal with fear. The easy thing to do is to be willfully ignorant and eschew concepts and the reality of situations that makes one "uncomfortable" or frightened, but continually choosing to take the "easy" way leads to weakness and apathy. It is that desire for apathy that has contributed to the negative part of the human condition. The danger in that is that apathy inevitably leads to bondage- in every sense of the word.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

I know this is an old thread, but I think you and I, Hanma, are of similar mind. I'll read the thread and comment on my thoughts using quotes so everyone knows what I'm referring to.

To start off with, pain is useful to the human mind. It tells us what kinds of things to avoid for the purposes of self-preservation. Then after experiencing pain, we associate the cause of it with fear. Fear is also useful, and triggers a "fight or flight" instinct. It lets us know when our lives are in danger: fight/flight, life/death.

However, in the modern world, pain and fear have overgrown its original intended use. Yes, if a man approaches me with a knife, fear sets in. Why? Experience with previous sharp objects. Or maybe even programming received from other people (eg- parents reprimanding us when playing around with knives). This fear is appropriate and useful; there is an actual life or death situation here.

Stand in front of 200 people, getting ready to give a speech. Fear. Your mind believes this is a life or death situation. Really? Where is the possibility of death? Fear is not necessary here, and in fact is counter-productive.

Another example of how pain is useful, concerning physical pain: leprosy. People with leprosy suffer from their limbs slowly rotting away. Most people believe this is because the disease causes their limbs to rot away. This is not true: leprosy affects the nervous system, and makes their body numb to pain. They take risks that other people would not take, because they cannot feel the pain; like reaching into a pot of boiling water to fish out the ladle, or mindlessly resting their hand on a hot griddle (they would not realize they were doing it until they smelled their own flesh burning). Also, children born with a rare affliction to the nervous system that also means they cannot feel pain, rarely survive into adulthood, for the same reason.

Ok, now for some responses:

Being content with what you have is another way of saying "I'm ready to die.

Yes, exactly. Because we're pretty much already dead. Being afraid of death or feeling like there's something I need to do with my life will cause unhappiness. Because, what happens if I'm not doing that thing?

Get off the bench or get lost.

I would change this to, "Get off the bench AND get lost [in the game]."

And you don't have to suffer to gain wisdom, you can learn by other peoples' pain. Okay that's not really amusing, but, you can still gain wisdom by looking at things around you.

We can gain wisdom without suffering pain. Yes, learn from other people's pain. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not like we're taking pleasure in their pain (schadenfreude). Other people's suffering broadens our view of suffering.

How can we be self aware when we're trying to be aware of ourselves? Isn't that clouding our view of ourselves? I mean, when we think of purifying our mind, we imply that it is dirty to begin with. So how can we clean our minds by having the desire to clean our minds (of desire) especially by thinking it's dirty? I think similar thing applies here.
Who is it that's the thinker; who is it that wants to be aware of itself?

These questions are really great. From my point of view (and please note that everything in all my posts are just from my point of view, since it is the only perspective I know), it is the TRYING that clouds our minds. The whole phrase, "just be yourself," is kind of useless, because I'm always myself. There's no way I'm not myself. It's an impossibility. Stop TRYING to be yourself, and just BE yourself.

Purity and dirtiness is an interesting duality. However, "dirty" does not mean "imperfect." Let's make that distinction. Having a dirty, clouded mind and wanting to purify it does not mean I'm not exactly where I need to be right now. I'm perfect where I am. I'm perfect in having a clouded mind right now, and I'm perfect for wanting to purify it. Everything is exactly where it needs to be right now. Respect the process.

WE HAVE THE UNCANNY ABILITY TO TORTURE OURSELVES.

Yes, the human mind, and arguably the minds of other animals as well, tends to torture itself. But what is being tortured? Once that self-torture mechanism is identified, it can be left to do its own processing without affecting my decisions or actions. I can realize those thoughts just as part of being human, and think, “Oh, hey, there goes my brain again, thinking up grandiose stories about how everyone hates me.” And then I can choose to believe it or not.

The mind can cover up the self, which is apparent when dealing with insane people or people with OCD. So, obviously, the mind is not the self. True suffering and drama occurs when I believe that I AM my thoughts; when I am brought down to the level that I am an individual, I am separate, I am alone and incomplete. This, I feel, is the illusion that Hanma is referring to.

And people would rather be called very bad slangs, swear words, racist terms than ugly. Ever thought of it? People don't see that it is ugliness that implies beauty, gives beauty its VALUE. Just as beauty implies ugliness. It cannot exist without it. It's the same thing really. People are SLOW.

the whole alpha beta thing is a biological conspiracy that females unintentionally perpetrate. of course in any group of organisms with a defined purpose (survival), there will be leaders and followers. leaders lead because they earned the trust and regards of the followers. followers follow because they believe it is beneficial to their surivival to be in the presence of someone who knows his shit.

Beautiful/Ugly; both are human terms to describe what is preferable or not. In reality, there is no beautiful, there is no ugly, there is no preferred state, there is just existence. It is, or it is not.

My take on the whole alpha/beta thing: somebody made that up. It seems to work in our logical minds, and anyone looking for evidence to support it will find it, just like anyone else who has any strong ideas (read: ATTACHED to the idea). They will find support for it because that is what their minds are set to recognize, similar to how I never noticed how many other Toyota Yaris’ there were until I went out and bought one myself. Did they all just suddenly appear? No, but my mind was suddenly tuned in to that station.

Transcend fear by limiting emotions? I suppose I should LET fear engulf me! Then it ... or rather I will realise that this whole thing was blown out of proportion by me, because of my illusion. See, all of this isn't permanent. Nor real. But I do agree with seeing why I feel what I feel. And you know what? It usually all boils down to "Why am I such a fool, to believe that I am just 'poor little me?'", you see? It may boil down to a mroe significant reason, like trauma, bad experiences altering my levels of trust, etc, etc, but if I realise that all this self pity is indeed stupid, the question remains is "Hey now, why do I keep coming back to this, albeit not as much as before?". That's because I haven't completely snapped out of it. Haha.

Yes, experience the fear. Fear happens, and it’s completely legitimate. Be careful of being afraid to experience any kinds of emotions. But also be careful of analyzing the reasons why you feel that way. WHY do I feel afraid? It doesn’t matter. What matters is that I feel afraid now. And then I would sit in that fear, feel compassion for myself, and it will dissipate and disappear, just like any other emotional state. Just like any illness, pain, love, or happiness. Just like life and death.

Yes, I know what you mean ... robots. I see it in old men, going through their midlife crises. Especially the successful men. Their professionall lives are terrific however when it comes to their personal lives, they're a mess. They stopped growing at 12 or 14. Because they were hooked by the game that they HAD to to become successful, to become "someone". They didn't realise that their sense of self had never developed, only their image of self that was conceived by their societal role, was. The mountain of sugar was just a mountain of dirt.
And they have to eventually accept their emotions - love, fear, hate and trust being the main ones in my opinion. They have to let themselves grow. You know what kind of men become robots? Those who are afraid of being human. Who don't wish to accept their weaknesses and play the game of "poor little me", or even worse, the disillusioned lone wolf.

I’m very careful about the stories I create around other people’s lives. I have no idea what their entire story is, even if they tell me directly. Some people will be enlightened during their lifetime. Others will not. Nobody can force that enlightenment, and criticizing those who have not yet reached enlightenment does no good. I prefer to provide support, understanding, and love. Like Gandhi said, “Be the change you want to see.”

I think, wisdom, human heartedness and true virtue is not something which can be explained by words.

Yes, I completely agree. When I try to explain some of my spiritual experiences, or the experience of being enlightened, language fails. It comes out really enigmatic and contradictory. Then I understand why the Bible was written the way it was, why Buddha’s sayings are so confusing sometimes. It’s because that’s the only way to describe it. It’s illogical, it doesn’t make sense when you try to interpret it with your mind. That’s because it is not a product of the mind.

There's always people who say "Be happy with what you have" but those tend to be the same people who have rarely been on the shitty end of the stick for much of anything. Me personally have stopped taken any type of advice from anyone and just do what ever I feel needs to be done to make myself a happier person and no part of that includes me settling for what I already have. Not saying I don't appreciate it any less but if I did settle I would die one highly pissed soul and tbh i'm not trying to feel that. Because of the fact I refuse to give up I guess you could say I value pain more over anything else.

I have to seriously disagree with this post. There have been studies done, that people in third world countries tend to report higher levels of happiness than those in first world countries. I feel it’s exactly the people who have been on the shitty end of the stick who are happy with what they have.

Also, I feel there is a distinction between happiness and “settling.” Happiness, for me, does not imply that I’m not going anywhere. It doesn’t mean I’m not moving forward. It means I feel I’m doing exactly what I need to do right now.

Man, I cause my emotions just as much as my environment. So I think I understand what you mean.

Hmm, causes of emotions. From my perspective, emotions happen. It’s part of being human. Do I cause them? Not really. They are a response to stimulus from the environment designed to safeguard my survival. It’s all part of the human machinery. They can’t be stopped, because they’re inherently ingrained into the way I am. It would be like a dog trying not to be a dog.

Now let's assume a situation where a person transcends (not ignore) their ego, but rather than seeing that the ego is just man made, that person becomes a megalomaniac, thinking that he/she is somehow superior than everyone else. You know, holier than thou people. You usually see these people as doing whatever they want. But you have to realise that we already do what we want. Think of it this way, when someone does a good deed and says to you “sometimes we have to do things we don’t like!” That was the better option, lesser of two evils. For if that action had not been taken something worse would have happened. So that’s your doing.

From my point of view, when this happens, it’s the ego coming in and taking credit for something that it really didn’t do anything do bring about. Hey, I realized I’m not just myself. I know that I’m actually made up of the entire universe. What about you? Notice the aspect of separation there, a difference between you and me? This is not coming from an enlightened being, this is coming from an ego. An enlightened person treats everyone as if it were themselves, because it comes from a mindset of: oh, hey, there’s me as a homeless person; there’s me as a single mom without a job; there’s me as a happy couple sitting on a park bench.

The problem of the megalomaniac as you described above, again stems from the ego.

like the bitch in misery.

He’s talking about the movie.

Didn’t read much of the most recent page, but if I find more ideas to post, I will. Interesting thread, guys!

[Big Al AdministratorPEGym EditorMale Enhancement Coach Rep.PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Big Al]

Thanks for this excellent post, Qarzan!

Yes, exactly. Because we're pretty much already dead. Being afraid of death or feeling like there's something I need to do with my life will cause unhappiness. Because, what happens if I'm not doing that thing?

That is a very profound message!

Setting goals can be a good thing and an educative process, but we can't allow temporary "failures" on the way towards those goals to make us feel like failures. Giving in to the fear of failure is like a living death- just as is allowing oneself to be frightened into incapacity by the thought of unlikely events (the latter usually being the end result of allowing the former behavior to progress). That latter part also allows for easy manipulated by others with ill intent, as it's lower on the "scale of consciousness". By then, the will has deteriorated enough to allow the acceptance of becoming a merely a passive subject feeling that one has control (esp. self control) over little to nothing in their lives.

I like the metaphor of seeing life as a path: sometimes you may stay in one place for awhile, and you occasionally take detours, the "scenic route", or even a few steps backwards; but you can always reorient yourself towards your final destination- if you choose to do so.

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

Damn you guys, I'm going to have a bitch of a time replying to this.

Worth it though.
Give me a day or two.

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

Sorry my laptop screwed up, that's why it took me longer than 2 days
Luckily I saved my replies, so once this machine is fixed I will post rest of the replies!

To cap this portion of the post, remember- the solutions to the world's problems are not going to be resolved with schemes that have only helped to have gotten it into serious trouble in the first place.

A quote attributed to a saying of Dr. Einstein's expresses this idea this up nicely:

“Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.”

Another statement that can be added to the above- they cannot be "solved" by the same entities that intentionally created them in the first place.

Oh man, that reminded me of a quote by Alan Watts: “Reasonable–that is, human–men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life.”

Many are sensing the despair that you're feeling, and your proposal is not an entirely irrational one; but it's VITAL at this stage of things that you do NOT lose your head to fear and rash decisions! NOW is when you need to be strong!

Well preparing for the happening would strengthen one in a way.

Yes- basic skills and learning how to cope with "austerity" are indeed important pursuits, but retreating into the wild and isolating yourself from the rest of humanity won't really fix anything in the long term. We actually need each other more in divisive times like these than ever before!

I’ll be in the trees if you need me. I think people should retreat into the wild at the end of their lives in order to become more “natural”, you know? Ancient Hindus had that as the last stage in life. Vanaprasta. Think about it, becoming a sage as your last goal. Wouldn’t that be interesting? Anyway …

Perhaps humanity needs to go through this unpleasant learning process full of suffering so that we can learn how to avoid the tragic cycles of "civilization" and all it's trappings that we've gone through since the beginning of recorded history. When we can finally learn how to accurately graph where technology, efficiency, AND VALUE intersect on the graph, then we'll be better able to solve our most challenging problems in a mature, dignified, and beautiful manner.

It always does, and I am sure that any civilisation that feels its human goes through the same cycle. It’s not to say that we can escape destruction, oh no – nothing lasts forever; it’s just that we need to consider this as one big cycle and simply try and escape the self-destruction, or if I can say so cheekily – delay it. Or we can do this:

We'll do it by using the inverse of the fear that's (so far) kept us trapped in the previous cycles.

[IMG]file:///C:\Users\home\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\c lip_image001.png[/IMG]

One unaccustomed to looking deeper than the surface of things would read the above as a violent act uncharacteristic of a Buddha. These types of quotes and parables require an open mind and a longing to understand them to be able to fully extract and benefit from the layers of their meaning.

The context of your last quote has intrinsic esoteric meaning. It can refer to not only looking into yourself for the truth, but it also refers to not becoming complacent in your spiritual development.

Or not becoming the idea of yourself?