Intermittent Fasting Protocols and Muscle Sparing

[closed297 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close closed297]

I don’t eat between breakfast (9:00 am) and dinner (6:00 pm) is that considered intermitant fasting?

Why?

And yes it's fasting if your wilfully neglecting lunch or snacks in between those time frames..

Fasting

Description

Fasting is the willful refrainment from eating for a period of time. In a physiological context, fasting may refer to the metabolic status of a person who has not eaten overnight, or to the metabolic state achieved after complete digestion and absorption of a meal. Several metabolic adjustments occur during fasting.

Most of us fast every night..
Some of us fast everyday without even knowing.. (sounds like you're aware though)
But they're trying to establish optimal methods and length times to benefit the health or as they call it the "semantics"
There is a good reason it's called "breakfast"

Intermittent fasting
Also known as intermittent energy restriction, is an umbrella term for various meal timing schedules that cycle between voluntary fasting and non-fasting over a given period. Three methods of intermittent fasting are alternate-day fasting, periodic fasting, and daily time-restricted feeding

The later being more calculated (or at least that's it's intention)
For some basic knowledge their extending the traditional 24-12 hour diet intake and increasing it's "semantics" to a longer format..
Like counting weekly nutrients instead of the traditional 24-12 nutrient format..
This isn't a set time period..
(with the addition of no surplus in nutrients during these time frames)
(which is the debatable part of this method)
(weather it increases/decreases MULTIPLE reactions)
It can also be studied in its opposite by narrowing that window to 2-6 hour formats..
Almost the exact opposite version of IF is increased meals..
Which like this method is also highly debatable..

At the core of it all you can go as as little as 1 minute or yearly nutrient requirement.. Im sure science would argue they could get as low as a couple of seconds and a lifetime
All methods are just variations on the traditional 24-12 hour format..(The most popular for some time now)
And just because it's popular doesn't mean it's the best (The reason these things get looked at)

It's worth noting for people with little to no knowledge on dieting these are considered advanced routines and usually constructed to success with adamant research and reasonable methods applied.
There is no reason why you can't obtain good health,weight loss and muscle gain with the traditional 3 meals.
In this particular case the debate is focused around sustaining muscle mass whilst losing healthy amounts of fat..

[not2big Senior Super ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close not2big]

Why?

And yes it's fasting if your wilfully neglecting lunch or snacks in between those time frames..

Fasting

as an insulin dependent diabetic, I need to infuse insulin to cover the carbs consumed in my breakfast and even then my blood glucose continues to remain elevated until after 4:00 Pm. If I infuse more insulin, my blood sugar will drop below acceptable levels in the afternoon.

[madyogi Moderator Member of the Month April 2020PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close madyogi]

I don’t eat between breakfast (9:00 am) and dinner (6:00 pm) is that considered intermitant fasting?

I don't know this for a fact, but my sense is that 10-12 hours would be the starting point of intermittent fasting. So ... 6pm to 9am is 15 hours. That might garner some benefits, but I would need to do more research. Most of what I've seen looks at 18-36 hours as the fasting period.

[madyogi Moderator Member of the Month April 2020PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close madyogi]

as an insulin dependent diabetic, I need to infuse insulin to cover the carbs consumed in my breakfast and even then my blood glucose continues to remain elevated until after 4:00 Pm. If I infuse more insulin, my blood sugar will drop below acceptable levels in the afternoon.

I agree, the protocols for diabetics will be further complicated. My protocols would allow for no food (except maybe some BCAAs) for 18-36 hours with no ill effects, then a day of nothing but protein, followed by a cheat day, followed by another fast, or something like that. That would wreak havoc on your endocrine system, more than likely.

I'm certainly not a doctor, and this thread isn't specific to what is best for diabetics. It's more interested in finding the best IF protocol for the average person to lose fat and retain/gain muscle mass.

[madyogi Moderator Member of the Month April 2020PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close madyogi]

Also yogi after this research.. make a diet program including a IF protocol we can all follow to see if results vary (i'm the perfect candidate as i have type 2 diabetes)

Yes, that is the idea. I plan to create a new routine based on this research that I'll use myself in order to shed a few more pounds of fat and put on some muscle after my recent weight loss. I'll post that here, then also start a new log thread once that gets going, more than likely between Labor Day and Thanksgiving here in the states.

[closed297 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close closed297]

as an insulin dependent diabetic, I need to infuse insulin to cover the carbs consumed in my breakfast and even then my blood glucose continues to remain elevated until after 4:00 Pm. If I infuse more insulin, my blood sugar will drop below acceptable levels in the afternoon.

can i ask if meal size reduction is possible? as a different approach?

I don't know this for a fact, but my sense is that 10-12 hours would be the starting point of intermittent fasting.

This realistically won't be factualised unless you provide a "Medium" body template including muscle mass.. bf% height and wait (BMI).. ideally containing estimated metabolism habits, activity levels, fitness regimes (previous and current) and hormone levels.. (as there is no such thing as "normal" this may prove difficult)(This is for any diet not just IF)
The main reason this is all so interesting (to me) that your personally partaking in it's method.. and your the template..(Let's call it the average guy into fitness)
It's more than plausible an athlete enters fasting mode 2 hours after he eats (Increasingly dependant on which types of nutrients were consumed)
You could nearly extend this to people who do hours of cardio and intensive manual labour jobs..
It's actually possible athletes already are susceptible to IF in smaller time frames as reaction to their grueling physical schedules..

[madyogi Moderator Member of the Month April 2020PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close madyogi]

And yes it's fasting if your wilfully neglecting lunch or snacks in between those time frames..

Fasting

Blah, blah, blah ...

Since I'm the OP here, I would like to ask that we all refrain from semantics around defining what fasting is. Technically, as soon as I stop eating dinner, I'm fasting. What we're exploring here is a more-or-less specific metabolic condition that kicks in 2-3 hours after the last time you ate. It's generally marked by a reduction in blood glucose from a spike that generally occurs within 30-60 minutes of eating. As I've already explained, most healthy people will begin to get energy from glycogen stores throughout the body for some undetermined number of hours afterward, beyond which catabolism begins.

Unless someone has substantive information to refine this definition of fasting, let's stick to figuring out 1) the best way to maintain this state for 18-36 hours without losing lean tissue in the process, and 2) the potential benefits of doing so.

[madyogi Moderator Member of the Month April 2020PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close madyogi]

can i ask if meal size reduction is possible? as a different approach?

Respectfully, please refrain from a back-and-forth on this thread about n2b's specific situation and your potential solutions. I've put a lot of work into the research here, and I'd like to keep the thread concise and on-topic.

Thanks in advance.

[closed297 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close closed297]

Ok great since im the OP of routines il respectfully ask you not to add any more comments in that thread.

Respectfully of course..

And i'll gladly not post ANYTHING in here or any of your threads even if its relevant and factual and a direct answer to a question someone asked..

Respectfully of course..

Great glad we could find a respectful agreement..

And respectfully thanks in advance..

Il RESPECTFULLY leave on this note

What does the 1st Amendment mean in simple terms?

freedom of speech



The First Amendment states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

as this website is a .com

[madyogi Moderator Member of the Month April 2020PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close madyogi]

Ok great since im the OP of routines il respectfully ask you not to add any more comments in that thread.

Respectfully of course..

And i'll gladly not post ANYTHING in here or any of your threads even if its relevant and factual and a direct answer to a question someone asked..

Respectfully of course..

Great glad we could find a respectful agreement..

And respectfully thanks in advance..

Il RESPECTFULLY leave on this note

What does the 1st Amendment mean in simple terms?

freedom of speech



The First Amendment states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

as this website is a .com

Bro ... I'm just trying to keep in on topic. I didn't say your input wasn't welcome if it was on topic. Take a chill pill, to use a nineties phrase and show my age.

I asked multiple times on Routines to stay on topic and discuss routines instead of little back-and-forth tit-for-tats. Things are much more interesting around here when threads stay on topic.

Wow, you busted me out on the First Amendment, huh? Geeze, relax, man. It was a simple request.

[Ultimate Burrito Moderator Member of the Month Oct 2017PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Ultimate Burrito]

Why?

And yes it's fasting if your wilfully neglecting lunch or snacks in between those time frames..

Fasting

Description

Fasting is the willful refrainment from eating for a period of time. In a physiological context, fasting may refer to the metabolic status of a person who has not eaten overnight, or to the metabolic state achieved after complete digestion and absorption of a meal. Several metabolic adjustments occur during fasting.

Most of us fast every night..
Some of us fast everyday without even knowing.. (sounds like you're aware though)
But they're trying to establish optimal methods and length times to benefit the health or as they call it the "semantics"
There is a good reason it's called "breakfast"

Intermittent fasting
Also known as intermittent energy restriction, is an umbrella term for various meal timing schedules that cycle between voluntary fasting and non-fasting over a given period. Three methods of intermittent fasting are alternate-day fasting, periodic fasting, and daily time-restricted feeding

The later being more calculated (or at least that's it's intention)
For some basic knowledge their extending the traditional 24-12 hour diet intake and increasing it's "semantics" to a longer format..
Like counting weekly nutrients instead of the traditional 24-12 nutrient format..
This isn't a set time period..
(with the addition of no surplus in nutrients during these time frames)
(which is the debatable part of this method)
(weather it increases/decreases MULTIPLE reactions)
It can also be studied in its opposite by narrowing that window to 2-6 hour formats..
Almost the exact opposite version of IF is increased meals..
Which like this method is also highly debatable..

At the core of it all you can go as as little as 1 minute or yearly nutrient requirement.. Im sure science would argue they could get as low as a couple of seconds and a lifetime
All methods are just variations on the traditional 24-12 hour format..(The most popular for some time now)
And just because it's popular doesn't mean it's the best (The reason these things get looked at)

It's worth noting for people with little to no knowledge on dieting these are considered advanced routines and usually constructed to success with adamant research and reasonable methods applied.
There is no reason why you can't obtain good health,weight loss and muscle gain with the traditional 3 meals.
In this particular case the debate is focused around sustaining muscle mass whilst losing healthy amounts of fat..

Half of that makes no sense without foundational knowledge of the subject.

[Big Al AdministratorPEGym EditorMale Enhancement Coach Rep.PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Big Al]

Ok great since im the OP of routines il respectfully ask you not to add any more comments in that thread.

Respectfully of course..

And i'll gladly not post ANYTHING in here or any of your threads even if its relevant and factual and a direct answer to a question someone asked..

Respectfully of course..

Great glad we could find a respectful agreement..

And respectfully thanks in advance..

Il RESPECTFULLY leave on this note

What does the 1st Amendment mean in simple terms?

freedom of speech



The First Amendment states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

as this website is a .com

At PEGym, we do our best to stick to the spirit of US law That being said, this site is the owner's [Remek's] "house", so to speak- and just as if you were on someone's private property, you agree to certain rules in order to remain on said property.

The following will be helpful in understanding the rules here:

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[madyogi Moderator Member of the Month April 2020PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close madyogi]

I wanted to circle back around to discuss positive nitrogen balance before leaving this thread alone for a while.

As discussed in Post #52, the amount of nitrogen in urine can be used to assess protein breakdown. Researchers refer to these markers as surrogate endpoints, which are "physiological or biochemical markers that can be quickly and easily measured, and that are thought to be predictive of a true clinical end point." Such markers are convenient, but are not necessarily indicative of the "true clinical end point" in question.

In this case, the clinical end point we are after is muscle mass gain or loss over time. Skeletal muscle turns over at a very slow rate (most sources I've seen say 1-2% per day). This would be very difficult to measure on a day-to-day basis, so researchers use nitrogen balance as a surrogate, which can be measured daily through urine samples and calculated based on dietary intake. The problem with this is, acute daily measurements of nitrogen balance aren't necessarily predictive of long-term loss or gain of muscle mass.

Certainly, in the case of the starvation study posted by Peg, the marker seems to have been predictive, which is to say their calculations of nitrogen excreted in the urine can be correlated to lean mass loss over time. But keep in mind, these participants were starved for 21 days and the only exercise they got was to walk around the hospital hallways. The very purpose of the study was to understand why obese people tend to die of starvation while they still have fat to metabolize. What they concluded was that protein was necessary for survival, and oxidizing fat was insufficient, so when you run out of muscle to catabolize, you die.

As a counterpoint to the use of this surrogate endpoint, however, have a look at this study - Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders. It took 12 men in their early twenties and randomized them into a high protein diet group and a low protein diet group. They followed the same beginner bodybuilding resistance training program for 1 month. Their body composition was measured before and after with hydrostatic weighing, along with strength indicators like 1 Rep Max for Squat and Bench Press, and of course, urine samples were collected to assess nitrogen balance.

Taken from the Results section of the study:

Although the PRO supplement (high protein diet) produced greater gains in some measures (body density, midthigh muscle area, and leg strength), these differences were small and not statistically greater than those observed with the CHO supplement (low protein diet). These data indicate that during the 1st mo of intensive bodybuilding training, if dietary Protein = 1.35 g/kg/day (157% of current recommendations), additional protein supplementation leads to similar gains in muscle mass/strength. This is surprising, given the NBAL (nitrogen balance) results, because over a 1-mo period the observed positive NBAL (+8.9 g N/day) should have resulted in a net muscle accretion of ~7.8 kg (assuming wet muscle tissue is 20% protein and protein is 16% N-by weight). This increase would have been detectable using the body density method employed (hydrostatic weighing) and definitely did not occur.

So, what they're saying is, using the same type of calculation the starvation study used, the nitrogen excretions in the high protein diet group predicted over 17 pounds of muscle mass gain. Instead, both groups showed gains on the order of 1-2 pounds during the month. This is further complicated by the fact that the low protein group was indeed in a NEGATIVE nitrogen balance overall, which predicts a net loss of lean body mass, and that also did not occur. It's worth noting both groups experienced increases in muscle strength during the trial.

This research seems to confirm my suspicion that nitrogen balance day over day is less important to long term muscle tissue loss or gain than other factors, such as training methodology and perhaps long-term nitrogen balance. Also from the study linked to above:

... despite the negative NBAL in the CHO treatment, the anabolic stimulus of the exercise program may have made adequate N available for skeletal muscle from endogenous N stores, e.g., gastrointestinal tract, liver, and kidneys (24). If so, short-term muscle gains during both treatments could be similar. However, such N mobilization (-95 g) could not continue indefinitely, and eventually one would expect to observe reduced gains in muscle mass/strength with the CHO treatment. To confirm this possibility, exercise studies with longer training programs and measures of labile protein mobilization are needed.

Fair enough, but IF protocols shouldn't have this problem when implemented intelligently, because any negative nitrogen balance would be temporary. The implication here is that for an IF protocol to be successful at retaining or gaining muscle mass over time, it would need to be combined with a good resistance training program, and the overall diet would need to include the equivalent of ~1.3g/kg/d of protein over time (probably a little more since the low protein group was in a slight negative NBAL). More generally, this study seems to show, at least for this small cohort over this short time span, that significantly more dietary protein than that does not lead to significantly more muscle gain.

[madyogi Moderator Member of the Month April 2020PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close madyogi]

At this point, I'm just adding interesting footnotes to this thread. I feel like the research presented has proven Intermittent Fasting protocols need not waste lean body mass when intelligently implemented. It seems those who would disagree are just turned off by the fact the word "fasting" is in the name of the protocol. I'm still interested in dissenting opinion, so feel free to post if you disagree. That said, my attention will now turn toward simply tweaking my own version of IF in order to find the "perfect" protocol for me to gain a bit of mass going into the US holidays in late November.

For now, I'll offer this study as a footnote: Resistance training reduces fasted- and fed-state leucine turnover and increases dietary nitrogen retention in previously untrained young men. I haven't carefully examined the methodology but in the abstract it states the following.

We aimed to determine the impact of intense resistance training, designed to increase lean body mass (LBM), on both fasted and fed whole body protein kinetics in untrained young men ... After training, whole body leucine turnover was reduced (P < 0.01) in both fasted (167 +/- 18 vs. 152 +/- 17) and fed (197 +/- 23 vs. 178 +/- 21) states [all values micromol/(kg LBM . h)]. Training-induced decreases (P < 0.01) in protein breakdown occurred in the fasted (165 +/- 18 vs. 144 +/- 17) and fed (111 +/- 23 vs. 93 +/- 20) states ... Intense resistance training alters whole body protein kinetics in novice weightlifters regardless of feeding status.

Again, no deep dive as to methodology on this one, but the conclusions seem to back up my claim that properly implemented IF protocols (those accompanied by a decent resistance training program and adequate overall nutrition) do not necessarily waste lean body mass over time, simply because they have extended windows of fasting. My emphasis is now turning to designing an optimal resistance training program, and a reasonable feeding plan to get the necessary nutrition over time, while allowing for the fasting windows I find beneficial.

[Johnny D ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Johnny D]

Mark Sisson draws from a lot of research, as well, and provides quite a bit of info on various fasting protocols and strategies. If you haven't checked out his stuff yet, you might look into it. I think you would appreciate his approach.