The Penis (smooth) Muscle Theory

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

Here is another idea I had proposed to remek in a PM and wanted to throw out here for discussion.

One of the first things new guys ask is "Are gains permanent?" Then we give them the spiel about "cementing" which basically we have understood to mean, keep exercising the tissue until the gains become permanent. I don't know if anyone has ever questioned or examined why cementing works and what exactly happens to the tissue that keeps gains from disappearing. It may be noted, that even after seriously "cementing" gains, some guys still loose a little if they stop PE completely. So, that being said, we can conclude that some type of atrophy or shrinkage takes places after stopping PE exercises. What causes this shrinkage?

Logically, if the body is forced to adapt due to exposure to a new stimulus, such as stress, and this stimulus is removed, the tendency is for it to want to return to the previous state before it was forced to adapt. This has been shown in many other areas (i.e. bodybuilding.) It has been theorized in this thread that if you stop PEing the smooth muscle in the penis might atrophy causing a loss of gains. This is valid reasoning. Scientific data supports the notion that smooth muscle can atrophy. SO - Likewise, could it be that if you made some good length gains and didn't work to fill the extra tunica space with SM; then stopped PEing, the tunica, lacking sufficient internal pressure to remain stretched out, could also atrophy back to the threshold of where the SM pressure is? This is assuming that the tunica has not been completely restructured by plastic deformation and that there is sufficient elastin remaining in the tunica to recoil it. On the other hand, if you stretched out the tunica and then develeoped the necessary smooth muscle to "fill in the gap" the added SM tissue could prevent the complete atrophy of the tunica?

If the SM can atrophy, why not the tunica? This could also help explain why lost gains return quickly? It could also help explain why EQ quality improves during a break - an "equalizing" of the tissues takes place. Meaning if the tunica is stretched beyond the capacity for SM to fill it, erections would be soft and weak. During a break tunica atrophy could reduce the excess space and improved erection quality?

Thoughts?

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

remek, I took the liberty of adding your most excellent explanation under the original post. It should be easier if we keep the summary in one spot.

Great idea!

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

Iguana: The theory makes sense, but I'm lost on one part: If the tunica is stretched beyond the smooth muscle's limit already, wouldn't the penis only be as long as the smooth muscle limit is allowing it to be? Or at least with the theory we have accumulated in this thread?

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

OK -This is my thinking:

According to the theory, if your tunica is not actively being stretched properly, but you are continuing to build smooth muscle, your erections will get rock hard. The added smooth muscle tissue, tightly constricted by tunica, increases the penile density and rigidity. Now, if we refocus our attention on the tunica and stretch it out, length gains occur. But, because the smooth muscle is no longer tightly constricted it flows easily into the new tunica space giving us new length. But at the same time, because it is no longer tightly condensed, we loose EQ. The erection, although longer, is now softer and much less firm. The goal now would be to refocus on SM to regain the original density and thereby cement the added length. I think if we continue to stay focused on the tunica we may gain a little more length but here is where some guys think they need a break due to poor EQ. They assume the poor EQ means they're over-training, they start decon and loose some length due to atrophy, both SM & tunica. I think if we are giving equal attention and getting results from both tissue types we avoid this situation. But, after we exhaust newbie gains, this seems very difficult to do.

This is not to say that some guys do not over-train or that all loss of EQ is due to this phenomenon. I think those things definitely exist but I think guys sometimes confuse them.

I firmly believe this happened in my case. I gained 3/8" EL in a length based routine and by wearing my Penis-Master 8+ hrs a day. However, I developed poor EQ and my gains slowed way down. Assuming I needed a break I took a long decon. I am 2 1/2 months into it, my EQ has not improved, and I lost most of my length gains. I think if I had refocused on building SM I could have retained my gains and improved my EQ.

I think it's a repetitious balancing act. The process being maximize the SM, stretch out the tunica, repeat.

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

What are your erections like (i.e. how bad is the EQ)? How are they with Levitra?

Do you think the break made you lost both your tunica gains and your smooth muscle gains (hence the reason your erections aren't back to normal)?

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

Right now, they are mediocre most of the time. Occasionally they will be really good but this usually happens when it's not a good time to measure. I haven't tired the Levitra in a few months so I don't know what effect it might have.

Yea, I think I lost a little of both. I still have about a 3/8" gap in BPEL and BPFSL. You would think if my poor EQ was due to over-training or something of that nature it should have improved in the last couple months. But I have to say it's no better than when I quit. So, for some reason, I am not getting adequate pressure to fully expand my tunica. Maybe my age is catching up to me?

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

Maybe my age is catching up to me?

Or perhaps the theory is dead on? I'm curious to see what happens when you return from the deconditioning break.

Do you Kegel?

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

I hope you are right. I'm very eager to get back in the saddle and test some of these new ideas. I'm halfway to having my routine worked out.

I was just starting to kegel when I broke my tail bone sledding. Now if I try it, it feels like someone is hitting me in the butt with a sledgehammer. I do plan on starting back up when I'm healed up.

I'm also going to start back on L-Arginine, Yohimbe and Ginko. I had great success with the L-Arginine but stopped taking it while on break to give my body a rest from it.

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

Iguana: I added another point. Feel free to add to it or take away from it.

- Weak or soft Erections
According to some studies, the lower the percentage of SM in the penis, the softer the erections. In theory, if everything else is working properly, then the percentage of the SM in the penis could be low compared to the other tissues (e.g. the tunica). That said, this sign is the hardest to interpert, as several things can affect erection strength, including overtraining, stress, an unhealthy lifestyle, and much much more.

Also, can you offer some more ellaboration on this point?
- Good flaccid hang - but erections are weak or soft = a sign that the SM needs focused on

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

Iguana: I added another point. Feel free to add to it or take away from it.

- Weak or soft Erections
According to some studies, the lower the percentage of SM in the penis, the softer the erections. In theory, if everything else is working properly, then the percentage of the SM in the penis could be low compared to the other tissues (e.g. the tunica). That said, this sign is the hardest to interpret, as several things can affect erection strength, including over-training, stress, an unhealthy lifestyle, and much much more.

remek, great point! I took the liberty of posting some reference articles in the summary to support this.

Also, can you offer some more elaboration on this point?
- Good flaccid hang - but erections are weak or soft = a sign that the SM needs focused on

Ahh, My good man, I do believe you to be the author of this fine point.

Perhaps another one is increased flaccid hang. The tunica is stretched, so the penis stays in a bigger flaccid state...

I think your logic here is sensible. If I am reading correctly: If you are experiencing greater flaccid hang, we would assume some tunica elasticity is being depleted from repetitive stretching. The question would now be, is the tunica stretched beyond it's previous EL creating a SM gap? (a tale-tell sign could be greater BPFSL) Or, is the elasticity break down preventing it from returning to it's original resting state? If the later is true, and no other influencing factors are present, EQ quality should be good. If the former is true, the SM gap could = poor EQ.

Is this in line with your thinking?

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

remek, great point! I took the liberty of posting some reference articles in the summary to support this.



Ahh, My good man, I do believe you to be the author of this fine point.

I suppose you're right . . . And this is exactly why I'm going through each point 1 by 1 - to make sure we didn't skip over anything. This point, I feel, might be best in the "maybe" section. Let's discuss it.

The question would now be, is the tunica stretched beyond it's previous EL creating a SM gap? (a tale-tell sign could be greater BPFSL) Or, is the elasticity break down preventing it from returning to it's original resting state? If the later is true, and no other influencing factors are present, EQ quality should be good. If the former is true, the SM gap could = poor EQ.

I think the underlining question about this point is what causes a bigger flaccid hang for most men? Is it that the tunica is more stretched out, or is it that the smooth muscle is more "relaxed" from the exercise, or a combination of the two?

What do you think causes the increase in flaccid size for some men?

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

I think the underlining question about this point is what causes a bigger flaccid hang for most men? Is it that the tunica is more stretched out, or is it that the smooth muscle is more "relaxed" from the exercise, or a combination of the two?

What do you think causes the increase in flaccid size for some men?

Great question. This might be the most complex indicator of them all. I wholeheartedly agree that this needs further investigation.

There seems to be 4 (maybe more) typical observations (excluding shrinkage due to over-training):

1. Larger flaccid hang, larger erect length
2. Larger flaccid hang, same erect length
3. Normal flaccid hang, larger erect length
4. Normal flaccid hang, same erect length.

This might make for a good poll.

With #1 we would assume enlargement of both and with #4, the obvious conclusion is no growth.
It's observations 2 and 3 that are the head-scratchers.
I would like to presume that with #2 you would have an increase (whether from growth or relaxation) in smooth muscle but no increase in tunica length. And the reverse for #3, an increase in tunica length but no SM growth (or relaxation.)

If I had to form a conclusion for which tissue is relaxing based on what we know... My gut instinct tells me it would be the later of your hypothesis, a combination of the two. It seems that since SM relaxation is necessary for an erection, any increase in flaccid size would require the relaxation (or addition) of SM along with the relaxation of the tunica. You would think that if the tunica did not simultaneously relax with the SM it would create a small but firm (possibly erect) penis. (There have been some guys who have reported this phenomenon in the injury forum.) Or, if the tunica relaxed but the SM did not, it seems the penis would be thin and spindly. The logical conclusion would be that they relax together from the repeated stretching. It is also possible that some increase in flaccid size could be attributed to SM growth. In this case, if no erect gains are realized then we would have to reason that the elasticity in the tunica is decreasing but not pushed beyond the initial erect length.

If the determining factor in this whole thing is relaxation as opposed to decreased elasticity or enlargement then I am at a loss as to what causes this. Smooth muscle relaxation is a complex bio-chemical response and I don't know how we might alter that through any elements in a PE routine, although I suppose it is possible.

This definitely needs further investigation.

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

Iguana: Great post. When I originally suggested this point, I was thinking along similar lines. . . But it was all just one of many cumulated theories in my head at that point. Now, after going back and forth in thinking about the different psychological responses that take place with flaccid growth, I think you may be dead on.

It's long been thought that the tunica is the limiting factor in PE (besides the ligaments). . . . And what we're actually suggesting is that this may be true. My question is: What do you know about tendons and how they react to stretching? Do they:

1. Decrease in flexibility, become thinner (and thus larger)? ... or
2. Do they actually grow?

In any essence, if we go along the lines with what you wrote in your post, then what we're saying is that the only way to increase erect size is to increase the tunica.

However, if we do increase the tunica and not the smooth muscle, and this continually occurs, then there won't be enough SM to create a strong erection. . . And this may explain why many men report that they notice an increase in gains after they do a high intensity routine and then take a break for a several days or more. The tunica grows right away (similar to tendons and rubber bands, the tunica most stretched out during and right after the stretching), and thus this causes some type of weaker erections.

On the other hand, the smooth muscle probably reacts like skeletal muscle: It needs rest from the exercise to actually grow (and catch up to the tunica). Once it catches up, a fairly big jump in gains occurs, and erections are back to normal.

But where I've been hitting dead end for some time now is this: What about the extreme of option 3 - Same flaccid hang, but dramatic increase in erect size (and increase in hardness)? According to your post (and what I was originally thinking):

#3 means an increase in tunica length but no SM growth (or relaxation.)

Avocet8 reported he had experienced the same flaccid hang, but a dramatic increase in erect size (and an increase in hardness). He had to exclusively focus on flaccid gains to change the size of his flaccid penis. I find it hard to believe that he both increased hardness and added several inches to his penis size just by increasing the tunica.

I'm going in circles here.

[remek Founder Find all posts View Profile Close remek]

I took another look at some anatomical scientific articles on the penis today. I found a really good one that touches up on the topic of this thread:

Anatomy of the Human Penis: The Relationship of the Architecture Between Skeletal and Smooth Muscles
GENG-LONG HSU et al. Journal of Andrology, Vol. 25, No. 3, May/June 2004

I attached the full article here, but below are the most notable quotes.

Quote 1: Basic overview of the penis and the role of its muscle

In the human penis, the skeletal ischiocavernosus muscles, the bulbospongiosus muscles, and their extension as the tunica albuginea support and contain, completely in the corpora cavernosa or partially in the corpus spongiosum, the smooth muscle structures that intermingle with fibrous tissue to form the wall of the sinusoids. However, in the glans penis, the skeletal ligament is entrapped by the smooth muscle structures and serves as a trunk.

Quote 2: An analogy of the penis to an athletic diver

An erect penis is analogous to an athletic diver without upper extremities who is standing on a springboard ready to dive. Thus, the glans penis corresponds to the head, and the penile shaft corresponds to the trunk of the body, with the penile crura corresponding to the legs. Whether the organ is healthy depends on its muscle integrity.

Quote 3, 4, 5: The tunica, the skeletal muscle, and the smooth muscle in relation to hardness

In the potent group, the ischiocavernosus and bulbospongiosus muscles are much thicker than those in the impotent group.

The penis skeletal muscle structures are the tissue that determine the penile shape as well as an essential part in the establishment of a rigid penis.

In the above quote, I presume by skeletal muscle structures, they mean the tunica, which is a continuation of the BC and IC muscles.)

Smooth muscle is an essential component of the sinusoids in the corpora cavernosa, the corpus spongiosum, and the glans penis. In the corpora cavernosa, the ischiocavernosus muscle and its continuation as the tunica albuginea contain and support the smooth muscle, and together, they meet the requirements for erection, whereas in the corpus spongiosum, the skeletal muscle partially entraps the smooth muscle to allow ejaculation when in a state of erection. The young cadavers show, unequivocally, a remarkable muscle bulk, whereas elderly subjects sustaining chronic diseases tend to demonstrate a lighter skeletal muscle bulk and slimmer distal ligament as well as a thinner tunica albuginea.

So it would appear here that the tunica isn’t just a tough tendon to be stretched – it, like the smooth muscle, is required to be healthy and strong if the penis is to be healthy and strong (along with the skeletal muscle it continues from).

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

remek, very interesting information! I'm going to have to read the last post over a few times to digest.
This latest point of flaccid vs erect indicators has given me a headache. I'm finding the more I learn the less I know.

So, how do you think this relates to what we have already compiled?