Warm-up rebuttal

[donjelqer76 Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close donjelqer76]

I've seen a lot of questions lately on warm-ups, and wanted to give my theory on this subject. Keep in mind that these are only my views which I will attempt to back up with scientific data. I am in no way suggesting that you should not warm up or otherwise take my view on this subject as scientific fact. I only offer this information so that each individual can draw their own conclusions and use this information as they see fit for themselves in their own PE routine. My intent is not to cause a debate, nor is it to offend those who believe in warm-ups.

At present time, I have been PEing for 2 months. I have used my own routines and have been quite aggressive (I regularly do clamping, ULIs, Horse Squeezes, Supra Slammers and a host of other exercises that most would deem as unsafe for someone with such little PE experience). I have never sustained any kind of injury, and I have never warmed up for any of my routines. I have a very strong belief that warming up does little to nothing to prevent injuries when it comes to PE. I work in the chemical industry and work with thermodynamics almost every day. I am very knowledgeable in heat exchange, conservation of energy and all other thermodynamic principles that would apply to pre-PE warm-up.

First, lets talk about what the goal of warming-up is. Many believe that by heating up the soft tissues of the body, they become more elastic and therefore less susceptible to injury. Improved blood flow is another desired effect of a warm-up. While there is some truth to the notion that warmer tissues are slightly more elastic, improving blood flow actually works against warming up the tissue. The problem in not in the reasoning of warming up, it lies in actually heating up the tissue sufficiently enough that the desired effect is obtained. I am going to attempt to show why this is nearly impossible with currently used methods.

Transfer of Heat
Many people believe that by putting a 115 degree rice sock on their male parts, that they are heating those parts up to 115 degrees. This is not true. Heat will move from hot to cold, at an increasing rate as the temperature differential increases. For our purposes, temperature differential (usually referred to as "Delta T") is very important - keep this in mind.
What happens is that depending on the mass of the two objects that are thermally bridged, the temperature will reach an equilibrium between the two temperatures. For example, assume you have 2 glasses of water both half full, with one glass containing water at 100 degrees and the other glass containing water at 120 degrees. If you pour these two glasses of water together, you should end up with 1 full glass at 110 degrees. The warmer glass did not bring the cooler glass up to its higher temperature - an equilibrium was reached which was between the two temperatures. Since the mass of both glasses was the same, this equilibrium is exactly in between the two temperatures.

When it comes to warming up for PE, we have to consider the temperature differential between the warm-up heat source, and the body. For simplicity, lets say that the body is 98 degrees, and the heat source is a rice sock at 120 degrees. We only have a 22 degree differential to work with, which means that if we attempt to heat up an equal mass of soft tissue with absolutely no losses, the maximum we can get the tissue to is about 111 degrees. Of course, even this is impossible as the rice sock will lose much of its heat to the atmosphere.
We also have to consider the masses involved. While a rice sock is pretty sizable, it has low density and low mass. When it comes to the body, you have to consider more than just the mass of the penis and the fat pad. You also must account for all the mass of blood that flows through that entire area through the warm-up period. Lastly, thermal resistance of soft tissues has to also be considered (its R-value). If you put a hamburger on a hot plate, see how long it takes for the top side of the hamburger to warm up - you may be surprised!

The human body
Now lets discuss the human body. The body regulates heat through convective cooling (dilation of blood vessels), and evaporative cooling (sweating). This is why blood vessels dilate - to increase blood flow and carry the heat away. While I won't argue that there are health benefits from having increased blood flow - when it comes to warming up, the increased blood flow is doing nothing more than trying to cool the area back to normal temperature. In fact, because of blood flow, it is very hard to heat internal structures such as the ligaments. With the low grade heat being applied and the low differential temperature, the blood moving through the area can carry the heat away almost as fast as its applied. If you use a cloth soaked in hot water, you also have additional evaporative cooling happening at the surface of the skin. The chances of heating internal structures more than a degree or two in 10-20 minutes is very slim. Even if you do heat them up, normal temperature will be restored almost immediately because of blood flow, and the heated tissues reaching equilibrium with surrounding tissues. Simply put, a minute after removing the rice sock - your internal structures are likely back to a normal temperature.

Test it out
You can test this out yourself with nothing more than a faucet that has hot water available and an infrared thermometer (the kind that gives you instant readings from your ear). We need a small cross section of soft tissue to work with... Look at the webbing between your thumb and your index finger. This is a very thin area of soft tissue to do a test on. Use your infrared thermometer to take the temperature of this webbing on both sides (the back side of the hand, and the palm side). Now start a fairly slow trickle of hot water from the faucet, and insert your hand into the stream palm-side down. Tilt your hand so that the water runs down the back of your hand and does not contact the palm-side of the webbing directly. Leave your hand in this position for 10 minutes. After 10 minutes, remove your hand and immediately take the temperature of the webbing where the water was contacting. Its temperature should still be elevated. Now take the temperature of the opposite side of the webbing (where the water did not contact). You should see very little to no temperature increase. By the time you check the webbing back on the other side again (where the water was contacting), you will also see that it returned to normal temperature very quickly.

I personally did this test. The webbing between my thumb and index finger isn't much more than 1/4"-1/2" at most. Even at 10 minutes of continuous hot water (water that never cooled off by losing heat to the atmosphere), the heat was barely able to transmit through even this tiny cross section of soft tissue. How on earth is someone's ligaments behind 1" of fat pad going to heat up during a warm up session (also realize that fat has a higher thermal resistance than other soft tissues)? The blood flowing through all the capillaries and blood vessels in the skin were able to carry most of the heat away as fast as it was added. Head that wasn't carried away directly by blood simply conducted to surrounding cooler tissues.

Conclusion
My conclusion is that while there is nothing wrong with warm-ups (they are quite soothing in fact, and the temporary increase in blood flow carries in more nutrients which makes it a overall healthy practice), it is not very effective in providing the desired result in making your tissues more elastic and resistant to damage from the stresses of PE.

(I could go in to much more depth, but just wanted to put a simple explanation out there)


Any thoughts or criticisms?

[mazinstar76 Member Find all posts View Profile Close mazinstar76]

Heat helps increasing the extensibility of collagen tissues.
You can check it online on academic literature.
You can also see this (collagen) in wiki pedia under "heat therapy".
Also there, more benefits are mentioned (related to the controlled micro-injury we want from PE).


Heat is utilized by physiotherapist and chiropractors for this kind of manipulations.

This is my opinion. Personally, I get much better work-outs after warming-up and I wouldn't leave heat application out of the game.

[donjelqer76 Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close donjelqer76]

Heat helps increasing the extensibility of collagen tissues.
You can check it online on academic literature.
You can also see this (collagen) in wiki pedia under "heat therapy".
Also there, more benefits are mentioned (related to the controlled micro-injury we want from PE).


Heat is utilized by physiotherapist and chiropractors for this kind of manipulations.

This is my opinion. Personally, I get much better work-outs after warming-up and I wouldn't leave heat application out of the game.

I do agree and understand the role heat plays in elasticity. I'm just saying that current methods aren't good enough to get this desired result. Especially considering the mass of a rice sock that is heated one time then applied - it will lose most of its heat to the atmosphere - there simply isn't enough usable mass to impart much heat into deep tissue)

I can see where constant heat during a routine would be beneficial though - possibly from an IR lamp or similar

[Zman007 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Zman007]

There are a couple of problems with your rebuttal, mainly the human body isn't quite as simple as you like to state it.

Firstly, we are after the plastic deformation of connective tissues, mainly Collagen. These connective tissues are more easily deformed in the presence of heat, or more specifically when stretched while heated they maintain their deformation when cooled to a significantly higher degree. The tunica is a type of dense connective tissue, which by definition actually has a low blood flow. Meaning, the "pockets" of connective tissue are going to hold their heat longer than other more vascular tissues. Also, during most PE exercises you are trapping much of the heated blood within the penis, and it only takes a couple of degrees of elevated temperature to achieve desired results.

I have answered your rice sock dilemma by using an electric heating pad which does not suffer the same failing as a rice sock and is a superior method IMO. The outer layers of the tunica are rather superficial and therefore easier to heat than tissues at the center of the penis.

I just did my own experiment, no equipment necessary. I thoroughly heated up my penis and noted an elevated temperature for a couple of minutes after removing the heat source.

The first couple of minutes are the most crucial as this is when these connective tissue are first stretched and stressed. This causes the least amount of micro trauma.

[namsokiek Banned Find all posts View Profile Close namsokiek]

please forgive me but I'm going to nit-pick the argument a little.

Blood vessles and capillaries dialate primarily to allow heat to leave the blood and in consequence cool the core. As a result to this transfer of heat the temperature in the general area increases. So if you sit in a hot tub with your arms, shoulders and head out of the water, these parts will display an elevated temperature because of this phenomenum.

True the temp may not get to 115°F but studies don't indicate that specific temp is necessary.

The experiment warming your hand is not entirely applicable. The other side was exposed to the air, the tisse includes skeletal muscle, the tissue does not contain the tendon (tunica) most directly influenced by the heat. Most warm-ups engulf the penis with heat by either wrapping or ensuring water completely covers the penis. Skeletal muscle is very different from the smooth muscle and can absorb a lot of heat. As previously stated, the tunica is very near the skin and is heated before the smooth muscle in the penis. A better measurement would be to get a temperature reading from inside the penis. Not comfortable, but with a narrow thermometer, some lube, and a lot of guts it's possible.

There is too much published research that demostrates the benefit of heating prior and during efforts to stretch ligament tissue, which includes all PE exercises. The problem is the best way to effectively heat the tunica during PE.

[donjelqer76 Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close donjelqer76]

I agree with most of what has been said. Yes, the tunica (or at least part of it) is in a position to absorb some heat. I also agree with OOZmanOO that a heating pad is a way better way to transfer this heat as it is basically a limitless supply of heat energy (as compared to a rice sock). The fact still remains however, that once the heat is removed, everything is going to return to normal temperature rather quickly.

Also, the hot tub example is exactly correct - the body is using the skin and blood vessels that are exposed to the air to get rid of excess heat like a radiator. The human body can sit in a hot tub at 110 degrees with over 60% of the body submerged for long periods of time without drastically raising the core body temperature because the blood is carrying the heat away to areas of the body that can release the heat. Once you remove yourself from the hot tub, the small temperature rise that was present will go back to normal rapidly because of this. This is exactly what makes it hard to apply and maintain much heat to a localized area of the body. The penis specifically is very vascular and I would imagine makes it even harder.
Regarding the ligs - a rice sock on a man with a 1" fat pad for 20 minutes... I can't see anything being gained in that situation

[namsokiek Banned Find all posts View Profile Close namsokiek]

I can appreciate your point but you're using unrealistc scenarios to refute reproducable, documented results; that heat aids the deformation of tissue like the tunica.

People cannot sit in a hot tub at 110°, 104° is more than most people can tolerate (5yrs observation as lifeguard, one of our tubs was maintained at 104°, very few could sit in it)

You'll need to provide some data that supports your assertion the core temp does not increase while in water. If it didn't, one could stay in indefinitely. However, body temperature does rise to within 1° of the water temp forcing bathers out to cool down. I agree that body temp can quickly return to normal once out of the tub.

The proximity of the ligs to the penis ensures they benefit from the residual heat transported by the blood as it leaves the area if direct heat is less effective.

Your points would be strengthened substantially if you provided significant, reproduceable data.

[donjelqer76 Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close donjelqer76]

Of course it's not a directly comparable example, it's only purpose was to illustrate that the body's natural response is to move and get rid of excess heat. I don't argue that elasticity increases with heat, I only argue that most used methods are unable to bring tissue temperatures up too a beneficial level, and that once heat is removed the tissues will return to body temperature quite rapidly(my PE sessions last a good 45 minutes)

Perhaps this thread will move in the direction of discussing more effective methods to get the tissues sufficiently warm.

I'm going to do a much better experiment when I get home tonight that should give some more usable data.

[second lensman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close second lensman]

I use the radiant panels in my house. Their temp. is dependent on the outdoor reset thermometer and the temp varies due to the ambient air outside but usually in fall and winter those panels are around 110 to 115 F. It doesn't take long for a real effective warmup. I agree that the rice sock is not very effective, but better than no warmup.

[Guest Close XitemeM]

In simple terms:

1. After heating up my cock feels hot to the touch. In fact you can feel the heat radiating off it.
2. I have skipped the warm up before and it resulted in 100s of tiny red spots on my shaft and glans.
3. https://www.pegym.com/forums/pe-theo...iotherapy.html

[not2big Senior Super ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close not2big]

I use a rice sock most every night while using my extender. I have never measured its temperature, but after one minute in the microwave, it is almost too hot to hold and definitely too hot to come into direct contact with the skin of my penis. Accordingly, I need to place a towel between the sock and my penis. I do this for about 20 minutes before it is cooled off enough to be placed directly on my penis, however, it is still quite warm, almost hot, but bearable. It remains very warm for another 20 minutes. After 40 minutes, it becomes Luke warm, but I can still feel some heat, especially if I message the rice periodically for another 10 to 15 minutes.

I know my temperature explanations are somewhat subjective; however, my time references are quite accurate as I am constantly checking the time, hoping its time to release my dick from the extender.

I acknowledge the rice sock is not the most efficient heat producing vehicle, but in my opinion, it's ease of use, portability, and capability of retaining usable heat for 40 to 45 minutes makes it ideal for stealth PE.

When I use my rice sock, I can usually get an additional 1/4 to 1/2 inch stretch as compared to extending without it.

[donjelqer76 Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close donjelqer76]

In simple terms:

1. After heating up my cock feels hot to the touch. In fact you can feel the heat radiating off it.
2. I have skipped the warm up before and it resulted in 100s of tiny red spots on my shaft and glans.
3. https://www.pegym.com/forums/pe-theo...iotherapy.html

Thanks for the reply. Again, I'm not arguing that heat application isn't helpful, only that most methods I've seen don't do much more than warm up the skin and blood vessels in the skin (which I guess it's helpful in its own right)
I just think that most people using a hot wash cloth or a rice sock for 5-10 minutes aren't quite accomplishing what they think they are.

I think the experiment I'll be doing tonight will shed a lot of light on this one way or the other.

I'm also beginning to think that long durations of heat (measured in hours) after PE would be beneficial

[donjelqer76 Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close donjelqer76]

I use a rice sock most every night while using my extender. I have never measured its temperature, but after one minute in the microwave, it is almost too hot to hold and definitely too hot to come into direct contact with the skin of my penis. Accordingly, I need to place a towel between the sock and my penis. I do this for about 20 minutes before it is cooled off enough to be placed directly on my penis, however, it is still quite warm, almost hot, but bearable. It remains very warm for another 20 minutes. After 40 minutes, it becomes Luke warm, but I can still feel some heat, especially if I message the rice periodically for another 10 to 15 minutes.

I know my temperature explanations are somewhat subjective; however, my time references are quite accurate as I am constantly checking the time, hoping its time to release my dick from the extender.

I acknowledge the rice sock is not the most efficient heat producing vehicle, but in my opinion, it's ease of use, portability, and capability of retaining usable heat for 40 to 45 minutes makes it ideal for stealth PE.

When I use my rice sock, I can usually get an additional 1/4 to 1/2 inch stretch as compared to extending without it.

I agree that stretching while heat is applied is extremely beneficial especially over longer periods of time.

This is a different situation than a 10 minute warm-up before stretching though.. if someone takes even 2 minutes to start stretching after warning up, the benefits may already be lost, and that's if they had enough heat energy and time to penetrate all the tissues

[donjelqer76 Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close donjelqer76]

Ok guys, I finally finished doing a better experiment, and the results even surprised me a little.
First off, thanks to those that have responded and thank you for not turning this into an argument. Personally, I'd just like to prove (to myself) that warm-ups either work as intended, or don't work as intended - nobody has ever really tried to prove it that I know of.

Also, a few points were made in earlier posts. One had to do with studies on rat tails. While I do believe that heated tissue is more elastic (As studies do show), the rat tail example isn't a great one - a rat tail has very little mass, little blood flow, and a very small cross section. It would be fairly easy to saturate a rat tail with enough heat to reap these benefits. Deeper tissues in the penis (ligaments, smooth muscle and at least half of the tunica) are a totally different situation, and my intent with this experiment is to show just how difficult it is to get heat deeper into the body.

Overview:
This simple experiment is to show how difficult it is to get heat to travel through soft tissues in the body. I believe it is difficult because of:
1) Blood carrying away the heat
2) thermal resistance of the tissues
3) mass that needs to absorb the heat is high compared to most heat sources, especially when the mass of all blood that travels through the area during the time is accounted for.
fasWhat I will do for this experiment is place a heating pad on a pillow, lay face directly on the heating pad, and try to measure any temperature rise on the inside of the cheek, between the cheek and lower gum. My mouth remained completely closed the entire time, and there was absolutely no talking or breathing through the mouth during the experiment. The entire side of my face stayed in full contact with the heating pad through the entire experiment.

Tools:
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/...-33-53_179.jpg
- Heating Pad
- Digital Thermometer
- Pen and paper
- Stop watch (I used an Android stop watch app)

Results:
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/...-34-06_710.jpg

Temperature measurements were taken once every minute for 20 minutes.
The temperature of the heating pad was 110+ degrees. My digital thermometer simply displays "Hi" over 109.9 degrees, so I'm just going to call it 110+ degrees for now, though in actuality it was probably somewhere between 115-120 degrees.
The starting temperature measured between my cheek and gum was 97.7 degrees.

If you look at the image, you will see that over a period of 20 minutes, you will see that after about 5 minutes a slight elevation in temperature occurs, with the maximum elevation in temperature being 0.3 degrees. At about 15 minutes in, you can see that the temperature drops back down a bit and levels off. The explanation is that between the blood carrying the heat away, and heat conducting to surrounding cooler tissues, very little heat is allowed to penetrate very far into the soft tissue. I would also like to point out that at the end of the experiment, my face was hot to the touch, and did feel like it was radiating heat - but this does not mean that heat penetrated very far beneath the skin, as evidenced by the results.


Consider that my cheek is only about 3/8" thick, and I was unable to much of any heat through it at all. Also consider that the penis is much more vascular than my cheek. With this in mind, I still think that with current methods it is nearly impossible (in a 20 minute time frame) to get heat to penetrate deep enough into the tissues of the penis (mainly the parts of the tunica that face the center of the penis, along with the ligaments) to make the standard warm-up beneficial when it comes to aiding in plastic deformation.

I do however think that there is benefit to the skin and capillaries, and as pointed out by others does help when it comes to preventing red spots.

I would be interested in seeing results from others performing the same experiment. With this being a penis forum, surely there is somebody here that would stick a thermometer into the urethra to get an even better experiment (though, the urethra is directly under the skin and may not be a good indicator of how deep heat travels into the tissues)

[Lazy 8 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Lazy 8]

Take a look at my post on ultrasound devices as a heat source here:https://www.pegym.com/forums/pe-theo...tml#post417502

I think ultrasound may be the best option for increasing tissue elasticity and therefore gains.