The true mechanics of growth and the correct thinking for growth.

[BundleUp Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BundleUp]

Man, trying to dig back through studies to find relevant information reminds me how much I hate the current state of science. I wish we could do some controlled experiments of our own and really get to the bottom of what works and what doesn't specifically for PE. I have some good ideas for experiments, we just have such a limited number of test subjects. If I could get at least 24 volunteers, we could get down to the meat-n-taters of this stuff and weed out the garbage once and for all.

[BigO AdministratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close BigO]

I think the OP has brought up some very good points, I also think BundleUp has as well. The problem is that There are not enough medical studies on penis enlargement but there should be and that is a shame.

Personally, I believe both cell volume will increase from forced induction of blood as well as plastic deformation and the repair and/or increase of cells caused by traction.

The fact is that most, 90% or more will gain their biggest gains in the beginning. No body, and I mean nobody will actually gain an inch of new dick in a short period of time. It is EQ gains, but a gain is a gain never the less.

I can almost guarantee that anyone that sees rapid gains at the start of PE has actually just improved their EQ. I am not saying that isn't a gain. It is, if it measures bigger it is a gain.

What I have noticed is that many gain right away ad then they stop or slow down significantly. This is where the real work comes in.

I gained 1/2 of an inch initially and I gained it in 30 days, but had I stopped, I would have lost that gain. After I slowed down or we should say, as my gains came to a screeching halt, I went to hanging after several months with zero gains.

I hung and pretty much only hung and went on to gain another 3/4s of an inch but it took a long time. No forced blood, very little jelquing and very little, if any, girth work at all during that time period.

I guess what I am babbling on about is that I believe to an extent, that both TeoDeles and BundleUp make interesting points.

I believe in cell division as in when we suffer micro tears we will build new cells and/or our cells will repair themselves as well as blood flow will engorge and stretch cells to add girth.

There is no amount of length gained by pushing blood alone once newb gains have stopped from blood lone, I believe that the length gains from jelquing have more to do with the continued stresses applied to the tunica, septum and ligaments in an outward direction but after all, we are all just talking about theories for the most part.

I see this thread as a very good one for a valuable discussion but without linked evidence and medical studies, it will never be more than a theory.

[BigO AdministratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close BigO]

Everything I stated above is also just based on theory for the record and I am not intending to discredit anyone's gains. After all the only dick I have tugged on and seen up close is my own!

[watersnake Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close watersnake]

I think this theory falls into the "less is more" modicum. I wonder though, if you have an exercise that you know is productive; then do that exercise to excess- to the point of overtraining and beyond- then you take an extended rest. Would you gain from all that excess effort during the long rest, or would the overtraining be lost in time with no gains?

[TeoDeles Senior Member Member of the Month July 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close TeoDeles]

Thanks for the good words and the replies.So let s continue the theories...
In my understanding newby gains is because of a more stretchable dick creation by the exercises and not because of better EQ.
In order to have EQ gains of 1/2 inch the person has to had EQ of like 70% and with the newbie program to go at 100% EQ.
But this is not the case because a lot are having 100% EQ before starting PE and they have the so called newbie gains after all.
On the other hand... we read about a lot of cases that the starting of PE did gave them better EQ but there were no newbie gains at all.( thats my case too... lets say from 90% I went to 100%)
This means that the blood flow increased but it could NOT expand the dick longer and/or thicker simply because it did not get any stretchier by the exercises... so IMO better EQ is not the case of the newbie gains.
IMO newbie gains is just a more stretchable dick that can expand more in length and/or girth and the gains on the ruler are there.
And finaly again I have to say that in my theory ALL the gains in PE are a result of a stretched out dick that can expand easier and more in length and girth.
What are we doing when we are jelqing? We are milking the sarrounding layers of the dick and they becomes more stretched out...
This stretched out state on the sarrounding layers means that the blood that will enter the dick (no matter the EQ) it will be able to expand it more in girth.
The best way to describe it is like thinking of a ballon...
If you take a ballon and stretch it repeatedly in length and girth , then when you blow air in it, it will be able to expand EASIER and MORE.
And THIS IS WHY A BETTER EQ IS HAPPENING with CORRECT PE(not overtraining) because the blood that is entering the dick it can expand the dick EASIER and MORE.
And this is why when a person is overtraining and he sparks the protection mechanism of the dick that creates a STIFF TURTLED state , gains can not happen and also gains can be lost.
My result of my theory didn t come into my mind by luck...
It came after reading almost all cases of gainers and non gainers on both forums and reading out carefully what they were doing when they gained and what they were doing when they were not and then the Pis got a true meaning.
Also in my case in 3 months I gained 0,5 cm of length and this period I had a HUGE FLACCID that was INCREADIBLY SOFT and it was almost all day full in blood.
But then I got into overtraining and the stiffness surviving mechanism got sparked and for the next 2 years !!!! not only I had zero gains but when I over did it , I lost my gains!
Then I looked carefully into my log and saw what gave me length... I got back into it and not only I gained back my gains but I gained more.

Some veterans were saying in their sig. " Undertraining is giving slow gains but overtraining is giving zero gains". This should be the moto of PE.

IMO progressions in the PE program should be done ONLY when the currect intensity and volume of the program that did gave gains... stopped giving gains for a period of 2 months....
So if 2 more months of the gaining program did not get any more results... then a TINY progression should be done and watch out what happens.
I was a very fast and very big girth gainer simply because I was not overtraining my dick with my girth program but I thought I was a non gainer in length because I was overtraining my dick in my length program.
When I lowered the intensity and volume of my length program , I became a fast length gainer... think about that...
The second period that I gained it was once again with the same dick indications...
Huge and soft flaccid that was very easy to be stretched and it was having bigger MFSL.
The MFSL is the only thing we have got as an indication of EL growth...
The MFSL not only should be getting longer.... but the how fast it can go into the MFSL is also of huge importance.
The MFSL should be measured ONLY under a CERTRAIN tension and not by stretching by the hand.
You can see accurately if you have gained or lost MFSL only if you are using the SAME TENSION for measuring and this is why I measure mine ONLY inside the extender that I am always using the same (600gr) of tension.I am measuring the SCREW LENGTH at the end of the day at my last extending session.
As I said the MFSL is not only about HOW LONG it can go but also HOW FAST it can go there...
ONLY when the MFSL can go FAST in its longer , its when teh gains in EL show up.
So for example measure the MFSL under a CERTAIN tension and under a CETRAIN TIME. For exampe 600grams after 1 h.
When the gains in my MFSL are happening it goes ALWAYS hand in hand with a FASTER elongation... this means that I am unscewing the screw a lot more frequent in order to follow the tension marking of my extender.
Slower elongation ALWAYS means LESS MFSL.
Just take care your dick to NOT become stiffer from overtraining .... always care your dick to be SOFT and LONG and THICK almost all day long.
Find out the correct intensity and volume that creates this positive state the gains will come.
IMO there are no non gainers.... there are only people that were overtraining and this is why they did not gain.

An other side note is that this stiffer state that can not give gains is the PF overtension...
The PF overtension is creating the so called hard flaccid... so in this state you can t make it stretched out therfore no gains can manifest at all.
Take care not to overtrain and always have a balanced PF and the gains has not reason not to happen.

[Squid Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Squid]

Though grammar is not the strong suit in this thread it does seem that everyone agrees that overtraining is bad. But what is that exactly? I am just a week or so away from 6 months on my phallosan only. I have had moderate tension for about 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. My EQ has suffered for sure, quite possibly from the stretching (though at 57 years old I guess that happens as well). I don't think my gains have been great, though there is a little (and definitely not a result of a better EQ for sure) but I will be making a new measurement soon and decide on the next schedule of months. If over training is considered heavy tugging or pressure, I have avoided that. But if it is in time spent, I have certainly been overtraining as I have kept my daily hours pretty high (again, with low-mod tension 90% of the time).

[TeoDeles Senior Member Member of the Month July 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close TeoDeles]

Though grammar is not the strong suit in this thread it does seem that everyone agrees that overtraining is bad. But what is that exactly? I am just a week or so away from 6 months on my phallosan only. I have had moderate tension for about 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. My EQ has suffered for sure, quite possibly from the stretching (though at 57 years old I guess that happens as well). I don't think my gains have been great, though there is a little (and definitely not a result of a better EQ for sure) but I will be making a new measurement soon and decide on the next schedule of months. If over training is considered heavy tugging or pressure, I have avoided that. But if it is in time spent, I have certainly been overtraining as I have kept my daily hours pretty high (again, with low-mod tension 90% of the time).

English is not my language sorry about that I am doing the best I can.
Yes overtraining can happen by big volume too...

As an example ...
My sweet spot of growth is 3 to 4h in the extender... ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS when I was going for more hours , my MFSL was becoming shorter and my dick flaccid was suffering from stiffness.
The sweet spot is different from person to person though. Its all about how sensitive the protective mechanism is.

[BundleUp Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BundleUp]

Teo, I believe your assessment of newbie gains is correct. Better EQ plus more pliable tissues = quick gains.

Past that, we're relying on activation of myoblasts and fibroblasts to form new cells, which is a much slower process. EQ can drop drastically during this phase because the formation of new smooth muscle cells can't keep up with the deformation of the collagenous tissue structures, and therefore can't cover the "holes" to fully block blood outflow. You just simply have to wait for the smooth muscle to catch up before EQ can improve again.

I think we could come up with a routine that keeps things in balance for optimal gains on all fronts. Maybe it would be a periodized structure, maybe a pulsed structure, or it could just be a constant that is a mix of length, girth, and EQ (which I doubt, because "spork" programs seldom yield optimal gains for anything). I'm partial to pulse structures because I've designed several workout programs on this template, and they've all worked better than standard programs.

[BundleUp Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BundleUp]

I am just a week or so away from 6 months on my phallosan only. I have had moderate tension for about 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. My EQ has suffered for sure, quite possibly from the stretching (though at 57 years old I guess that happens as well).

I think the phallosan only part is what's getting you. Adding some EQ work is very likely to help. Once you get that part sorted out, adding some manual stretches before the phallosan would most likely help with gains. Again, the most of the top gainers have used a mix of manual stretching and traction.

[BigO AdministratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close BigO]

Thanks for the good words and the replies.So let s continue the theories...
In my understanding newby gains is because of a more stretchable dick creation by the exercises and not because of better EQ.
In order to have EQ gains of 1/2 inch the person has to had EQ of like 70% and with the newbie program to go at 100% EQ.
But this is not the case because a lot are having 100% EQ before starting PE and they have the so called newbie gains after all.

You have nothing to base this claim on other than your own thoughts and experiences, many have had different thoughts and experiences...Who is correct? Most men do not have any where near 100% EQ. You have presented no evidence to base this claim on. This does not mean you are wrong but stating it does not mean you are correct either

On the other hand... we read about a lot of cases that the starting of PE did gave them better EQ but there were no newbie gains at all.( thats my case too... lets say from 90% I went to 100%)
This means that the blood flow increased but it could NOT expand the dick longer and/or thicker simply because it did not get any stretchier by the exercises... so IMO better EQ is not the case of the newbie gains.
IMO newbie gains is just a more stretchable dick that can expand more in length and/or girth and the gains on the ruler are there.

Not all penises are built the same. One may gain in EQ without gaining in size but one can also pull on their dick for 5 years and make no gains as well. If the stretchy dick theory were true, every person that did ulis, clamping and pumping would gain in girth even if they could not gain in length

And finaly again I have to say that in my theory ALL the gains in PE are a result of a stretched out dick that can expand easier and more in length and girth.

This is a pretty bold claim, on what are you basing this on other than reading forums. Have you done extensive research on university studies, maybe had 100 men in a controlled study under your supervision??

What are we doing when we are jelqing? We are milking the sarrounding layers of the dick and they becomes more stretched out...

I agree with this to a point, there is also lig stretch, the possibility of pulling out inner penis until the easy gains stop ad the possibility of improved EQ, add all those up and an inch in a year could be from multiple things occurring together over the course of a specified amount of time.

This stretched out state on the sarrounding layers means that the blood that will enter the dick (no matter the EQ) it will be able to expand it more in girth.

Many do jelques and squeezes for a long time with no gains in girth

The best way to describe it is like thinking of a ballon...

Only for the corpus cavernosum and the corpus spongiosum, ligs and septums cannot expand or lengthen this way

If you take a ballon and stretch it repeatedly in length and girth , then when you blow air in it, it will be able to expand EASIER and MORE.

Again, Only for the corpus cavernosum and the corpus spongiosum, ligs and septums cannot expand or lengthen this way

And THIS IS WHY A BETTER EQ IS HAPPENING with CORRECT PE(not overtraining) because the blood that is entering the dick it can expand the dick EASIER and MORE.

True for the most part, many improve their EQ with pelvic floor strengthening exercises. The blood is worthless if the muscles that control an erection are not functioning properly

And this is why when a person is overtraining and he sparks the protection mechanism of the dick that creates a STIFF TURTLED state , gains can not happen and also gains can be lost.

My result of my theory didn t come into my mind by luck...
It came after reading almost all cases of gainers and non gainers on both forums and reading out carefully what they were doing when they gained and what they were doing when they were not and then the Pis got a true meaning.

I could say my reading experience trumps that of most all around but I am not going there, but I have literally thousands of hours of research and likely close to 40,000 plus posts on various forums, again, not saying this means I know more, just stating that I have been around a long log time and have read many many theories, clinical studies and results and have been doing so for well over a decade.

Also in my case in 3 months I gained 0,5 cm of length and this period I had a HUGE FLACCID that was INCREADIBLY SOFT and it was almost all day full in blood.

I have experienced this as well, its pretty cool isn't it

But then I got into overtraining and the stiffness surviving mechanism got sparked and for the next 2 years !!!! not only I had zero gains but when I over did it , I lost my gains!

Again, this is your experience, I have over trained as well but never lost gains because of it, just suffered setbacks in achieving more gains

Then I looked carefully into my log and saw what gave me length... I got back into it and not only I gained back my gains but I gained more.

Some veterans were saying in their sig. " Undertraining is giving slow gains but overtraining is giving zero gains". This should be the moto of PE.

I like "find what works for you! but that one is good as well

IMO progressions in the PE program should be done ONLY when the currect intensity and volume of the program that did gave gains... stopped giving gains for a period of 2 months....
So if 2 more months of the gaining program did not get any more results... then a TINY progression should be done and watch out what happens.
I was a very fast and very big girth gainer simply because I was not overtraining my dick with my girth program but I thought I was a non gainer in length because I was overtraining my dick in my length program.
When I lowered the intensity and volume of my length program , I became a fast length gainer... think about that...
The second period that I gained it was once again with the same dick indications...
Huge and soft flaccid that was very easy to be stretched and it was having bigger MFSL.

So how would your theory apply to those that have a shorter or equal BPSFL than their EQ? Have you read the TGC theory?
The MFSL is the only thing we have got as an indication of EL growth...
The MFSL not only should be getting longer.... but the how fast it can go into the MFSL is also of huge importance.
The MFSL should be measured ONLY under a CERTRAIN tension and not by stretching by the hand.
You can see accurately if you have gained or lost MFSL only if you are using the SAME TENSION for measuring and this is why I measure mine ONLY inside the extender that I am always using the same (600gr) of tension.I am measuring the SCREW LENGTH at the end of the day at my last extending session.

As I said the MFSL is not only about HOW LONG it can go but also HOW FAST it can go there...
ONLY when the MFSL can go FAST in its longer , its when teh gains in EL show up.
So for example measure the MFSL under a CERTAIN tension and under a CETRAIN TIME. For exampe 600grams after 1 h.
When the gains in my MFSL are happening it goes ALWAYS hand in hand with a FASTER elongation... this means that I am unscewing the screw a lot more frequent in order to follow the tension marking of my extender.
Slower elongation ALWAYS means LESS MFSL.
Just take care your dick to NOT become stiffer from overtraining .... always care your dick to be SOFT and LONG and THICK almost all day long.
Find out the correct intensity and volume that creates this positive state the gains will come.
IMO there are no non gainers.... there are only people that were overtraining and this is why they did not gain.

Some do not gain because of undertraining or improper training, this does not always indicate that they are not training enough or too much. In many cases, they just have not figured out what works.

An other side note is that this stiffer state that can not give gains is the PF overtension...
The PF overtension is creating the so called hard flaccid... so in this state you can t make it stretched out therfore no gains can manifest at all.
Take care not to overtrain and always have a balanced PF and the gains has not reason not to happen.

I have addressed some of your statements this way because I hate the multi-quote feature.

You make very good points, but remember that it is only a theory at best and until proven it will be nothing more than a theory but these are the conversations that we need to have.

If it seems as if I am attacking your theory, I am not, I only aim to show you that for every point you have there are many other points that are worth considering that you must understand. There are many other theories that people have applied, and some with amazing success.

There is much more to growing than this theory is addressing

[TeoDeles Senior Member Member of the Month July 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close TeoDeles]

Teo, I believe your assessment of newbie gains is correct. Better EQ plus more pliable tissues = quick gains.

Past that, we're relying on activation of myoblasts and fibroblasts to form new cells, which is a much slower process. EQ can drop drastically during this phase because the formation of new smooth muscle cells can't keep up with the deformation of the collagenous tissue structures, and therefore can't cover the "holes" to fully block blood outflow. You just simply have to wait for the smooth muscle to catch up before EQ can improve again.

I think we could come up with a routine that keeps things in balance for optimal gains on all fronts. Maybe it would be a periodized structure, maybe a pulsed structure, or it could just be a constant that is a mix of length, girth, and EQ (which I doubt, because "spork" programs seldom yield optimal gains for anything). I'm partial to pulse structures because I've designed several workout programs on this template, and they've all worked better than standard programs.

Thanks for the reply.
IMO all the studies that you are reading has no application on the dick .
These studies are accurate on muscles and ligaments and bones but not on something a lot more complex like the dick that includes the tunica and chambers and what else...
A lot of people had the thinking of " I will work hard on it and I don t care that my EQ dropped because later on I ll have the gains and I ll regain my EQ by lighting the program" only to find out that not only they didn t gain anything but they also lost gains...( I was one of these cases).
When you are losing EQ from PE training is because you created a stiffness from overtraining and the things in there have become so stiff that the blood can not enter easy so it can t expand it.
After all EQ means blood entering and expansion. (assuming that the testosterone and the hormons that take place in the bllod flow are OK).

As the 1st post of mine is saying.... penis enlagement is only about a stertched out state of the dick parts ( tunica-smooth muscle-tissues and stuff) that is resulting in an easier and bigger expansion when the blood is entering during erection so the bigger size shows up.

People also think that the key is keeping the dick in a light stretched state after the actual PE work out in order for the hypothetical microtears to remain opened and fill the gaps by new meet...
This simply is not true because many many members have gained 1 or more inches of length without this method...
They were just doing their actual PE session of the day and letting the dick freely.
The only thing that I can accept and agree with a use of an ADS for some hours after the PE workout is that this light ADS tension is preventing the OVERAL stiffness because its like doing a nice warm down and not because it keeps the microtears opend for filling purposes,

[TeoDeles Senior Member Member of the Month July 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close TeoDeles]

@Big O
I am not quoteing your post because it wil take lot of space.

We do NOT have studies on PE. So the only study that we are able to have is the PRACTICAL and EMPIRICAL cases of the forum members+ our own.
So as you also said.... until then we will be making THEORIES... and its better than nothing.

As for what you said about members that were busting their dicks and reported big gains.... I will never believe in these claims simply because this is the internet and any sick minded person can enter a forum and post whatever he likes.
I have read members claiming that gained 2 inches by doing 5 to 7Hgs air pumping for 3h per day !!!!!!!
Only a person outside PE could believe claims like these...
If some one do 3h of pumping this not only will result in no gains ... but it will result in a "dead forever dick".
I ve read posts of people claiming that were extending with a strap for 16h oer day and taking pain killers to reduce the pain and before sleep they were doing hard jelqing and manual stretching and they also gained 2+ inches.... Again these BS are not believable by a person that practices PE.
I am smart enough to identily genuine posts so these were the ones that I took into considereation before making my theories.
When a person is complaining about no gains whis what he is doing... he can t be lying...
When a person is saying that after lowering the program he finally gained ... he can t be lying
The lies are always when a person exagurates on the method or on the gains.

We all know that skipping training days or just petting your dick will not lead in any gains.... but this is something that all know so there was no need to be mentioned.
What they don t know... and this is why this thread is made... is that overtraining lead also to no gains.

IF my theory was wrong then the MORE IS MORE approach would work on anybody and the only people that would not gain would be the people that was not trying enough.

The ONLY way to justify WHY overtraining is leading to no gains is because it cancels out the stretched out state of a gaining dick.
If the gains were not about a stretched out dick then there wiuld be no overtraining and no gains.
Simple as that.

The dick is an increadible stretchy part of the body but it needs strategy in order to ALLOW to become stretchier.
If you drop the strategy and go for more more more training it fights back by trying to survive in order not to be damaged.
What I just said is what PE is all about.

So until real studies will came into a light and cancel my theory ... I am holding a strong stance on it and not changing my theory that is based on real human beings that succeded or failed.

[TeoDeles Senior Member Member of the Month July 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close TeoDeles]

@Big O I forgot to cover this one:

You said
"Many do jelques and squeezes for a long time with no gains in girth"

Yes I know...and the reason is undertraining or overtraining or not proper technique.
I had jelqed 3-4 times in my life before and never had any gains...
But in my last attemt of PE by my jelqing technique I have gained 1 inch in girth...
We are speaking about the SAME dick (mine) and a change in the technique took me from zero to 100

I was jelqing by the forums technique of 3 secs with medium intensity and zero girth.
I started jelqing with 7 to 10 secs strokes with an intensity of milking an egg and be carefull not to brake it and I gained 1 inch girth.

There are no methods that doesn t work...
Thera re only intensities and volums and techniques that doesn t work.

Also I had manual stretch in the past along with jelqing and no length gains.
I was using the classic forum instructions of 30 secs stretch with medium instenisty .
Then after reading a person post of manual stretching in the other forum I followed what he did...
2 minutes per direction and an intensity that was just static at my MFSL and I gained 6mm in 6 weeks.

[BundleUp Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BundleUp]

While I agree with some of what you post, some of it is way off base. The assertion that the penis will not grow new tissue would be a physiological anomaly that has never been seen before. There's even a traction procedure that will lengthen bone by causing new tissue to grow in response to stretch stimulus.

The body responds to stimulus. That's a universal fact. If you intermittently cut off blood flow to a body part, the body will respond by growing new and bigger vessels. If you get fat, the body will respond by creating more skin (and when you lose the fat, the skin stays). It just takes finding the right stimulus to get things to grow.

And yes, I know that the studies I posted aren't specifically about the penis. But they do apply to the tissues that its made of. Type 1 collagen doesn't know whether it's in your dick or your ankle (or in a petri dish). It just does what it does, and the body puts it there TO DO what it does.

[TeoDeles Senior Member Member of the Month July 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close TeoDeles]

And yes, I know that the studies I posted aren't specifically about the penis. But they do apply to the tissues that its made of. Type 1 collagen doesn't know whether it's in your dick or your ankle (or in a petri dish). It just does what it does, and the body puts it there TO DO what it does.

Tissue is the tip of the iceberg when we are speaking about the dick...
There are a lot more parts that if they don t grow.... the tissues and the skin will not change anything.