Beginner PreE Routine Member Input Thread

[SoftMmoNoPreE Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SoftMmoNoPreE]

6. IK are spinal? reflex contractions of a specific muscle; BC IKs, IC IKs, PC IKs. IK's are not bad being unable to relax to baseline is bad.

Changing Your IKs

You can change your IKs in 3 ways brain, penis and muscle.

Penis method - called desensitizing and I'm against it. Im against it because these sensory nerves are the exact same ones that allow you to feel pleasure. I like pleasure.
You trigger sensory nerves in your frenulum, urethral opening or glans to fire a lot and they become less sensitive to stimulation. Probably by increasing their threshold to firing possibly by forming a callus.

Brain Method - Spinal reflexes are also under brain control. Often inhibited by the parasympathetic system. More relaxed mental state -> less intense reflexes -> more ejaculatory control.
You compare what your brain and spine "feel" like when you have intense IKs to when you don't then you try to make your brain and spine "feel" like when you don't have intense IKs. SGE is inhibited by neurons in the "tail" of the brain stem (ventral medulla) so start with your focus there. Meditation, recent ejaculation, weed? and alcohol? also increase parasympathetic neurotransmitters or decrease sympathetic neurotransmitters.
Your brain in ejaculation

Muscles Method - Voluntary reduction of muscle activity is an active process. Because muscles rebuild themselves constantly, muscles can change. Muscles can get better at relaxing by increasing the transport of Ca++ ions out of the muscle fiber or by changing the fiber-type distribution of itself.
You get better at relaxing by relaxing. Relax as fast as possible many, many times until your muscle fibers build more Ca++ transporters.
Muscles vary based on ability to relax

[Polyorchid Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Polyorchid]

My definition of IK.
The BC muscle contracts, either continued contraction or a quick spasm. The whole muscle contracts.

When I have an errection the BC feels contracted. Harder than normal when flaccid.
But it also can contract even further which is when I have increased sensation on my glans.
This is the tension I refer to as an IK. It's the same feeling I feel if I voluntarily kegal.
With arosal/lost focus/stimulation/ and bad habits from poor masterbation I find myself tightening this up to increase the pleasure. Higher stimulation this provides, I've notice the spasms happen during that time.
In myself.

As for that spasm I feel when I stimulate the frenulum, I've all but given up on trying "stop" it. It doesn't seem to cause me as much trouble as those kegals I mentioned prior.

I do have a question about IC and BC proximity. I'm still trying to locate the IC muscle in my exploration of my own PF. I just can't seem to pinpoint where they are. I want to feel the effects of stimulation and try to control it or relax it.
Further more on the subject of IC. I'm curious as to the effect it has on the pressure in theCS and whether or not that pressure has is associated to sensitivity.
Touching a flaccid penis isn't as pleasing as an errect one..IC control the erecttion.

[SoftMmoNoPreE Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SoftMmoNoPreE]

Learning - I gotta learn about learning, wtf?

A simple model of learning is cyclical

-> indicates leads to (->)

1.Cue -> 2.Action -> 3.Reward -> 4. Changes to Motivation + Attention

Definitions

Cue - Can be pretty much anything physical, mental or temporal.
Attention - What you are focused on and how focused you are. If you miss a cue, it didn't exist
Motivation - Your desire to act.
Reward Value - how good or bad you think the reward is
Relative Value of Reward - How good you think the reward will be compared to other rewards available
Reward % - The % of time you think if you perform the action you will be rewarded
Prediction Error - the amount or frequency of reward is different than expected
Delay - The time spent between the action and reward. Less makes it more likely you will act.


Let's describe this model in relation to ejaculation. Ejaculation is designed to make babies, and probably for health. Nocturnal emissions are probably not physiological accidents.

Ejaculation

1. Cue - Anything that makes you horny. Your brain puts together all the signals that your penis are inside a woman with a vagina who would be a good choice to have a baby with. Or that the sperm in your epididymus are old and need to be thrown away.

2. Action -Ejaculation

3. Reward - Your reptilian brain and peripheral nervous system (PNS) automatically release different types of feel good neurotransmitters. However, because you have PreE after a while your more complex brain takes over and you start to feel bad.

4. Changes to Motivation + Attention - Ejaculation has deep evolutionary roots. It's necessary for species to survive. The reward is not under conscious control. The reward is 100%. The reward value is large but can be decreased with negative thoughts.

There can be prediction errors because some ejaculations can feel better than others. Negative prediction errors are what made you find this site and start curing your PreE.

Because of the delay until you start to feel shame you aren't going to ever convince your body that ejaculation is bad. You are always going to like having your penis is vagina-like things. Ejaculation is good. Better ejaculation is even better.


Non-ejaculatory edging

1. Cue - Same as ejaculation at first. Then anything you want.

2. Action - Stimulation of the genitals

3. Reward - At first none. Then pleasure. Then accidental ejaculations. Then MMO which includes most of the rewards from ejaculation.

4. Changes to motivation + attention - When you first touch your dick knowing you aren't going to ejaculate. Nothing will happen. Bad EQ. No pleasure.

So you steal some of the cues from ejaculation which already have rewards associated with them; porn, fantasies, positions, etc. You spend enough time in the excitement phase of sexual response you learn to feel pleasure. It feels good. You get better and feel more pleasure. The amount of pleasure grows with learning and voluntary behaviors. The value of the reward grows over time.

You ejaculate accidentally trying to feel even more pleasure. Thus getting the rewards of ejaculation, but inhibiting you from continuing your edging session. Your body starts calculating the relative value of the rewards. Is longer pleasure worth avoiding the intense pleasure of ejaculation?

You convince yourself it is and start paying attention to things that bring you closer to PONR or push you farther away. You get better at edging, and getting better at edging makes you feel good about yourself. Your self-efficacy goes up, and you want to improve it more.


Questions

7. Compare PMO and searching for sex. What are their cues, reward values, delays, reward % and prediction errors?

[SoftMmoNoPreE Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SoftMmoNoPreE]

My definition of IK.
The BC muscle contracts, either continued contraction or a quick spasm. The whole muscle contracts.

When I have an errection the BC feels contracted. Harder than normal when flaccid.
But it also can contract even further which is when I have increased sensation on my glans.
This is the tension I refer to as an IK. It's the same feeling I feel if I voluntarily kegal.
With arosal/lost focus/stimulation/ and bad habits from poor masterbation I find myself tightening this up to increase the pleasure. Higher stimulation this provides, I've notice the spasms happen during that time.
In myself.

As for that spasm I feel when I stimulate the frenulum, I've all but given up on trying "stop" it. It doesn't seem to cause me as much trouble as those kegals I mentioned prior.

I do have a question about IC and BC proximity. I'm still trying to locate the IC muscle in my exploration of my own PF. I just can't seem to pinpoint where they are. I want to feel the effects of stimulation and try to control it or relax it.
Further more on the subject of IC. I'm curious as to the effect it has on the pressure in theCS and whether or not that pressure has is associated to sensitivity.
Touching a flaccid penis isn't as pleasing as an errect one..IC control the erecttion.

Thanks for contributing. Frequent IKs leading to temporal summation and a continually increasing muscle tone is a good addition.

Have you watched and understood Lvls 1, 2, 3 of anatomy above? They contain the answers to all the bold. Anatomy is a terrible subject to try to explain through just words.

Scientists use the pressure in the urethra as a surrogate for sexual pleasure in animal models, so yes pressure in the CS is probably connected to sensitivity.

[Polyorchid Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Polyorchid]

On level two now. I'll have about 8 hours tonight to read watch and study. As well as speculation about the information.
Which once I start on trying to figure out how something work I get kind of obsessed with trying to understand it all.

[SoftMmoNoPreE Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SoftMmoNoPreE]

Lessons from anatomy Lvl 1

You are always contracting and relaxing any muscle

Muscles have a resting tone that is higher than it would be if no nerve was connected to it. They do this by activating the smallest and weakest parts first and moving to bigger and stronger muscle units when that part needs a break.

You are trembling

As they switch which muscle units they are activating, muscles change in strength slightly. Prove this to yourself by holding your hand at arms length

The CNS controls muscle contractions

A healthy muscle unit that is contracting has a nerve that is firing. The "its all in your head" crowd were indirectly correct.

[Polyorchid Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Polyorchid]

Are their any signs or sensation when ones somatic and automatic nerves are in conflict?

Meaning: willing the relaxation the BC muscle while the sympathetic NS is telling it to contract?
Tingling??? burning???

I'm looking for signs that your willpower over the ANS is working or in conflict.

A sign that you control over the somatic side of the PF is getting better/stronger?

Tried looking for areas where these two NS would be in conflict but the only place I can think of is breathing.
Imagine control over your PF was as simple as breathing, My dream.

[SoftMmoNoPreE Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SoftMmoNoPreE]

8.)Are their any signs or sensation when ones somatic and automatic nerves are in conflict?

Meaning: willing the relaxation the BC muscle while the sympathetic NS is telling it to contract?
Tingling??? burning???

I'm looking for signs that your willpower over the ANS is working or in conflict.

A sign that you control over the somatic side of the PF is getting better/stronger?

Tried looking for areas where these two NS would be in conflict but the only place I can think of is breathing.
Imagine control over your PF was as simple as breathing, My dream.

Good question.

Breathing

Control over the pelvic floor IS as simple as breathing. You are just breathing wrong. That is what meditative reverse kegels try to teach you.

The PC is part of LA which is part of the pelvic diaphragm (PD). It should move smoothly in response to increased intraabdominal (IA) pressure.

I was unconvinced that breathing affected the BC and IC for a long time because I couldn't think of a way for IA pressure to transfer to the superficial muscles of the pelvic floor. That's because I was breathing wrong.

IA pressure gets transferred to the BC and IC through tension in the abs and fascia. Abs attach to the top of the pelvic bone IC and BC at the bottom of the pelvis. They are separated. But they're not. If you've ever dissected a frog you'll know that anatomy textbooks and videos make anatomy look way simpler than it is. Isolating muscles is super hard because they're all interconnected; that is the fascial system. It's kind of like tiny tendons that exists everywhere and between everything. Fascia is super tough and doesn't stretch well so it does a good job of transferring force between muscles.

Smooth Pull-Up Breathing - For people with low rectus abdominus tone.

The abdomen is the bottom part of the cylinder with your lungs on top and the diaphragm acting as the piston. During respiration your abdominal cavity should act as one unit to disperse increased IA pressure. Why use only a few muscles when you can use them all? Your abdomen shouldn't move front-back. It should move out-in. Your ribs should expand. Your back should stretch. Breathing is exercise. Do this for 10 minutes and you'll agree.

1. Pull up slightly (10-20% of possible force) with your rectus abdominus from as close as possible to your pubic bone.
   You won't be able to pull up right next to the pubic bone because your abs have already become fascia at that point. Just try to get as close as possible
2. Inhale smoothly through the nose while relaxing everything but the rectus abdominus into the area just above the pubic bone
   You DON'T want to be hugging yourself from the side, pulling up and out or pushing down with your abs too much. That would be over-activation of the transversus abdominus, internal obliques, and external obliques respectively. The area below your belly button should expand smoothly and the sides of your abdomen
3. Exhale and relax the rectus abdominus
   The very mininal tone in the other ab muscles should stay. Especially the tension in the transversus abdominus.
4. Reevaluate.
   Did you feel anything in the BC or IC? Did one side feel easier than the other? Did your PC move during inhalation? Which parts moved? Which parts didn't? I feel it especially in the left side of my BC and IC. My left ribs flare out and my rectus abdominus is more developed on that side. So I try to concentrate on pulling up more with the right side and my sensation of stretch in the right BC is improving. My ribs often don't expand as much as they should and I only feel a tiny movement in my back mostly on my right side.
5. Repeat
   My rectus abdominus is super weak so it hurts before I experience any other NI. I try to do these all day. I actually end up doing it for 1-2 hours in sessions of 5-30 min.

PI: Feeling a stretch in BC and IC, increased smoothness of inhalation, more equal on both sides, lateral abs expanding on inhalation, back stretching during inhalation, workout-type pain
NI: nerve-type pain, incontinence

Questions

8.)Are their any signs or sensation when ones somatic and automatic nerves are in conflict?

Meaning: willing the relaxation the BC muscle while the sympathetic NS is telling it to contract?
Tingling??? burning???

[iceclimber Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close iceclimber]

So it's all about eliminating BC's IKs, and keeping/improving IC's IKs, right?

I feel like I can only work on both at the same time.

If I have IKs I have a good EQ and ejaculate fast, which means I may be having both IKs. Now if I concentrate to have less IKs I can last longer but my EQ decreases, which means I stopped both IKs.

[SoftMmoNoPreE Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SoftMmoNoPreE]

It's all about slowly increasing voluntary control all over and increasing tone and strength where its needed.

I needed tone in my rectus abdominus, glutes and hamstrings. I needed stretching in my hips flexors and back. Your situation may be different. But if you have anterior pelvic tilt these are super common.

That is why Hindis and Modified Missionary Thrusting (MMT) are so effective. Hindis stretch the back and strengthen the glutes. MMT stretches your hip flexors and adductors, depending on how wide your knees are, and strengthens your abs, because it's like a moving plank.

[SoftMmoNoPreE Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SoftMmoNoPreE]

So it's all about eliminating BC's IKs, and keeping/improving IC's IKs, right?

I feel like I can only work on both at the same time.

If I have IKs I have a good EQ and ejaculate fast, which means I may be having both IKs. Now if I concentrate to have less IKs I can last longer but my EQ decreases, which means I stopped both IKs.

Isolation and control take time. Watch superficial perineum below and lvl 3 anatomy.

A good way to separate the IC and BC is that the ICs are around the two corpus cavernosum (CCs). The BC wraps around corpus spongiousum (CS).

Find your bony landmarks. The penis attaches to the inferior border of the pubic bone. From there the pelvic bone spreads out like an upside-down v. Where each side of the V ends is called the ischial tuberosity or sits bones.

Try imagining your the penis, BC and IC as the peace symbol with a huge dot in the middle. Going straight up is your erect penis. The dot is where the BC and ICs are next to each other and the and the bottom parts of the CCs spread out along the edges of the ischium.

You want to have voluntary control of all of your muscles as much as possible, unless you are currently orgasming. You want light IC kegels to take you from 7 EQ 10 EQ. IC resting tone prevents blood from entering the CCs so you don't constantly have 7 EQ.

Erection

Erection is a two step process where first the ICs relax to allow blood flow more blood to flow into the penis. This takes you to ~7 EQ. This swelling in the CCs blocks the dorsal vein that empties the blood from the penis.

This is why having an erection lasting for more than 4 hours is dangerous. It is basically the same blood in your penis the whole time you have an erection and that blood needs to be refreshed.

Once no more blood can flow into the penis you need IC contraction to compress the CCs to increase pressure because more pressure=more rigidity. This is what takes you to 10 EQ.

Shaft rigidity/CCs erection is governed by IC tension. CS/glans erection is governed by BC tension. You can fuck with your BC relaxed, but your glans won't be as big.

[SoftMmoNoPreE Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SoftMmoNoPreE]

Oops missed a level of anatomy. I thought the second video in level 2 covered the superficial perineum, too. Maybe I should have rewatched the videos before posting.

Lvl 2 The perineum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgUzlJmOOMs

This should probably be lvl 2 and Im moving the pelvic floor to level 4 after penis.

[Polyorchid Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Polyorchid]

Boners

This Study
suggest two different phases for an erection. A vascular one and a muscular one.

This study shows us how intracavernous pressure(ICP) is increased significantly via the IC muscle. It also states that during the muscular phase of erection, the phase where stimulated glans induces a involuntary contractions of the IC muscle to aid in penile rigidity, the ICP goes higher than the systolic pressure of the blood, a lot higher.


This study goes over the IC and glans relationship and ICP.
How stimulation was absent IC was less active, thus lowering the ICP.

Hypothesis:
ICP along with stimulation is a trigger for ejaculation.

Once ICP reaches a threshold that the sympathetic (or parasympathetic??) nervous system ,most likely via the hypogastric nerve, decided that sufficient pressure in the ICP is good enough. Possibly triggers spasm in the BC, the involuntary ones that don't carry semen.
(Somehow simultaneously)
Stimulation of the penis triggers the prudendal nerve to fire off the BC muscle that ejects semen.
How these two work together to figure out what time is right, I'm unsure.
This article shows us that both nerves need stimulated to fire off ejaculation.

Reason I think ICP is a trigger for ejaculation:

Evolution, it want your penis inside a vagina before it shoot its load.
IC pressure comes from glan stimulation which comes from a vagina.

Relaxing the PF release tension and pressure pushes back PONR

To many kegal exercises can have negative impact on you lasting in bed, and their has been some talk about kegals somewhat help in strengthening the IC muscles.

Stopping stimulation, stopping the automatic IC contractions that increase ICP pressure keeps PONR away.

Tighter grip's typically bring on point of no return faster then looses ones.
Tighter grip increases ICP.
-----
I need this hypothesis scrutinized by my peers. So if there's anything or any evidence you have to support or object to the hypothesis that ICP has an effect on ejaculation. Please tear this apart.

[Polyorchid Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Polyorchid]

Here's another really detailed look at erection

[SoftMmoNoPreE Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SoftMmoNoPreE]

Interesting stuff. Intracavernous refers only to CCs or also CS?

Small Glans Edging

There's a possible positive feedback loop for intra-corpus spongiousum (intraCS) pressure leading to ejaculation. The bulbospongiosus reflex could cause ejaculation.

As you've said

Touching a flaccid penis isn't as pleasing as an errect one

glans simulation -> BC contractions -> increased glans pressure -> increased sensation in the glans -> increased stimulation

We've all had rock hard erections with either a small "flaccid" glans or "full" big glans. I don't remember if I've ever ejaculated with a "flaccid" glans.

In my memory of porn, male porn stars have a smaller glans about the width of the shaft of the penis except during cum shots. Only during cum shots do they have the "full" glans, wider than the shaft, that I do near PONR. Trying AP90 right now so I don't want to check.

If this theory is correct your goal would be to allow drainage of the CS (by relaxing the BC any other options?), while using the IC to keep the CCs erect. You can feel venous drainage of the CS because the blood is colder than normal so this should be a skill you can train yourself in.

Apparently IC also contributes to intraCS pressure so its not as separate as I thought. Although I think the BC is dominant with only personal evidence.

"In the rigid-erection phase, the ischiocavernosus and bulbocavernosus muscles forcefully compress the spongiosum and penile veins, which results in further engorgement and increased pressure in the glans and spongiosum."