Involuntary kegels - Cause or symptom?

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

I've posted my news already, but just to say the advice here is *all* good. I wouldn't be where I am today without the people on here. I was already convinced from some of Pegasus' posts especially that this was the right road. Now I know it is, and it feels amazing x

So remember that, and never, ever lose heart. We're cracking this shiz by jingo!

You'll have to forgive me if I blather on about the random things I'm thinking, I know I go on a bit, I'm just hopeful if I share my thoughts that others might identify with some of it and we can get to the bottom of things better. That has to be better than disappearing for 3 months and suddenly turning up going "guys, guys, guys, this is the answer!!! lol!!"

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

The best and non harmful way to deal with the involuntary kegeli is by turning them into counscious kegel holds (1-3 seconds) that way you are not going against the flow yet you are disrupting the involuntary kegels.

I just read this back now. It kinda quietly slipped in without a song and dance, and everything we've been discussing is all useful, and part of the picture, but this one tip is GOLD, buddy. Relaxing from where you are at a given moment is *really* hard, but doing this and paying close attention to how your body feels as you let it go... well what can I say. RKs certainly work, but compared to this approach, I feel they can be a bit like using a hammer to crack a nut.

[NakedMan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close NakedMan]

I try to counter my involuntary contractions with a long RK hold, but the moment I release the RK the spasms happens anyway.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

I try to counter my involuntary contractions with a long RK hold, but the moment I release the RK the spasms happens anyway.

yeah I get that too. keep doing them if it doesn't work straight away, stop all stimulation if you have to, and really focus on the sensation of your body relaxing - Your BC/PC should get the message eventually! What sort of arousal level are you at? If you're close to PONR already, then you're setting yourself a big wall to climb!

I posted something the other day about it being abit like trying to stop hiccups by holding your breath real tight. That's kind of been my experience.

(edit) oh, and keep at it... you WILL improve rapidly, I promise.

[NakedMan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close NakedMan]

stop all stimulation if you have to, and really focus on the sensation of your body relaxing - Your BC/PC should get the message eventually!

No arousal, no spasms. But how will that help me to stop the spasms when aroused?

What sort of arousal level are you at?

The involuntary contractions only come with higher arousal levels for me. They also seem to be especially linked to a movement I often do (I sort of squeeze my glans through my foreskin). I'm focusing on applying a RK at that very moment as described in some other thread.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

No arousal, no spasms. But how will that help me to stop the spasms when aroused?

The involuntary contractions only come with higher arousal levels for me. They also seem to be especially linked to a movement I often do (I sort of squeeze my glans through my foreskin). I'm focusing on applying a RK at that very moment as described in some other thread.

The trick that's worked the best for me is to keep the arousal down much earlier. I think with DO/MMO, and especially what minuteman does (I think) is to hold on at much higher levels, much closer to PONR. I can't do that (yet) I thinnk it's an entirely different proposition, and others might be able to give you more insight.

[MarcusHa Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MarcusHa]

Sorry for bringing this thread to life again, but theres good info here.

They (involuntary kegels) also seem to be especially linked to a movement I often do (I sort of squeeze my glans through my foreskin). I'm focusing on applying a RK at that very moment as described in some other thread.

Involuntary Kegels seems to be the hardest side of the PE condition. So I came out with an exercise focusing on those involuntary kegels triggered by vaginal-like glans stimulation. It is quite simple:

* When Edging, every 10 penis base strokes, make a longer one that includes the glans - at the same time you do a Reverse Kegel. Then if you gain more control, make a long one each 5 short penis base strokes.

Would that be useful?

[Cantona7 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Cantona7]

@Marcus
Involuntary Kegel spams are necessary. They are the ones that propel your semen further and determine how far you can shoot it (depending on the strength of your muscles). So you can't get rid of them completely. What you should be concerned about is-- untimely Involuntary Spams. The ones you encounter every time to touch your glans (hypersensitivity), when you balloon (hypersensitivity), when you have sex in doggy style or Missionary (due to the involvement of this muscles to achieve a superior stroke). The point I am making is, with practice you should be able to lessen the frequency of these spasms and over time gain complete control.

A good K/RK routine (50/50 or 40/60) combined with conscious effort to repel them while edging/having sex should do the trick.

[MarcusHa Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MarcusHa]

@Marcus
So you can't get rid of them completely. (...) The point I am making is, with practice you should be able to lessen the frequency of these spasms and over time gain complete control.

Sure, Cris!

What about the exercise I pointed out?

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

@Marcus
Involuntary Kegel spams are necessary. They are the ones that propel your semen further and determine how far you can shoot it (depending on the strength of your muscles). So you can't get rid of them completely. What you should be concerned about is-- untimely Involuntary Spams. The ones you encounter every time to touch your glans (hypersensitivity), when you balloon (hypersensitivity), when you have sex in doggy style or Missionary (due to the involvement of this muscles to achieve a superior stroke). The point I am making is, with practice you should be able to lessen the frequency of these spasms and over time gain complete control.

A good K/RK routine (50/50 or 40/60) combined with conscious effort to repel them while edging/having sex should do the trick.

For me the nature of what I've referred to as involuntaries is very different to the involuntary spasms of ejaculation. Those are much much stronger, and they're rhythmic whereas the involutaries you get otherwise are the sign of a poorly toned pelvic floor, they're lighter, more like twitches, and often prolonged. They're almost a distant memory for me now, but I'd maintain that stopping them 9 times out of 10 is a cornerstone, and any further or more advanced exercises will be far harder, if even possible whilst you're still suffering with them.

For what it's worth, and maybe I was lucky, I was able to get those under control within a month or two of starting on this journey. I found that even without a physical RK I could anticipate it enough to resist the contraction somehow. It's not a sensation I find awfully easy to describe, but it was kind of like the energy was just released and spread out across my body instead.

Minuteman's Kegel Hold trick, whereby as soon as you get the contraction, you kegel hard yourself for some secoids and overpower it before relaxing as far as you can was phenomenally effective. Obviously we're talking about a month or two's work here, not a couple of days, but I can't recommend that technique enough.

[Cantona7 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Cantona7]

I'd say it is a very good routine to start with. With Pre E, Marcus, you have to "train" your brain. (that rhymed) Meaning you have to consciously make your brain aware of the fact that it is not cool to have those spasms. Now it might sound funny, but our body does have a memory and various habits. I believe, these spasms are the direct result of it.

There is always psychological and physical side to Pre E. An example of the former in this particular case would be "reprogramming" your brain not to have those untimely spasms, and for the latter would be a good kegel/reverse kegel routine.

By the way, I only stroke my glans while edging. I believe in taking bull by the horns. Noticeable thing is, I do have over 3 months experience with edging and that's not how I started. I used not to touch my glans at all for the first ten minutes when I first started out, but I worked my way up to where I am.

Hope this helped.
Cris

[JamesMonroe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close JamesMonroe]

I'm testing a new theory that maybe involuntary spasms/kegels/sensitivity might be caused by light touches and a light/loose grip during mastirbation growing up. Read my post on the "death grip". Most people with light grips have prem ejac and people that use tight grips have DE. I feel that if you touch lightly and have a light grip your penis will react hypersensitively with spasms to most normal loose vaginas because it needs to ejaculate to that same feeling to procreate. On the other hand, if u slowly get used to intense right grips and stimulation, your penis will only react to that intense tight feeling that most girls do not have in their vaginas, so u last longer till you do it doggy ste or anal sex, which is tighter. We will have results soon... a lot of guts her at gonna try it and report back to me.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

By the way, I only stroke my glans while edging. I believe in taking bull by the horns. Noticeable thing is, I do have over 3 months experience with edging and that's not how I started. I used not to touch my glans at all for the first ten minutes when I first started out, but I worked my way up to where I am.

Pretty much the same with me now. It's funny, but over time I don't even feel like I'm edging any more, I'm just enjoying the whole thing, so now if I choose to last longer, I'll just ease up and enjoy it some more. Point is it's not a conscious "fight" any more, and maybe that's a lot of the psychological angle right there.

I'm testing a new theory that maybe involuntary spasms/kegels/sensitivity might be caused by light touches and a light/loose grip during mastirbation growing up. Read my post on the "death grip". Most people with light grips have prem ejac and people that use tight grips have DE. I feel that if you touch lightly and have a light grip your penis will react hypersensitively with spasms to most normal loose vaginas because it needs to ejaculate to that same feeling to procreate. On the other hand, if u slowly get used to intense right grips and stimulation, your penis will only react to that intense tight feeling that most girls do not have in their vaginas, so u last longer till you do it doggy ste or anal sex, which is tighter. We will have results soon... a lot of guts her at gonna try it and report back to me.

Interesting... I'm not sure I was light or heavy growing up, it's hard to be sure. I certainly didn't death grip though. What I did find last year however was that I couldn't use my foreskin (I'm uncut) the way I wanted to, and even when edging, as soon as I brought my foreskin into action I'd lose control completely. Now since I've improved a *lot*, this isn't a problem any more. I'm really not sure why that is - perhaps a frenulum thing? Dunno - maybe talk to naturesucks about that, he was sold on that idea. That's a whole other story though.

Just as an aside, we've mentioned regular sex as an effective therapy a few times. I think now, that this is more to do with the psychological "training" that Cris is talking about since I made a lot of progress earlier this year with serotonin boosters, and now, although I've eased right up on the drugs and supplements over the last few months, as in I hardly ever take anything like that now apart from the odd recreational hit, I've somehow retained a lot of the benefits. To the point where I haven't taken anything legal or otherwise for well over a month now, and last night I was with a girl and after 20 mins or so, I actually couldn't be bothered to finish up and cum. So, as hard as it may be to take that unconscious effect seriously sometimes, y'know we think we know ourselves, I'd warn anyone against taking it for granted.

[MarcusHa Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MarcusHa]

Of course it helped, Cris! I get what you say about retraining my brain. Body memory aint funny, its a fact! I hope to get to my glans as soon as possible too

Hey James, I think you have a point. So when Edging, with a tighter grip, my body would constantly learn how to get used to more stimulation than it was used to get... That sounds reasonable

For what it's worth, and maybe I was lucky, I was able to get those under control within a month or two of starting on this journey. I found that even without a physical RK I could anticipate it enough to resist the contraction somehow.

I am reluctant to the idea of being a K/RK slave during sex. So Spanky, you mean you were able to control those spasms by only Edging and toning your pelvic floor, no special tricks? Just to know the connection between those spasms and PremE... How long did it take to you to get an acceptable lasting time during intercourse?

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

I am reluctant to the idea of being a K/RK slave during sex. So Spanky, you mean you were able to control those spasms by only Edging and toning your pelvic floor, no special tricks? Just to know the connection between those spasms and PremE... How long did it take to you to get an acceptable lasting time during intercourse?

Pretty much, yeah. I was doing regular kegels at the time anyway after Pegasus' Implications thread gave me such confidence I joined up and got involved. At that time I couldn't hold a normal kegel at all, like as soon as I contracted the muscle it would just drop immediately no matter how much I tried to hold it. Luckily that muscle gets fitter really quickly so I guess that had a lot to do with it, but at first all I could do was try to consciously resist by keeping relaxed. A month or two in, when I'd gained a bit more control, and could isolate the different kegels well, though they weren't fit, I started trying both Minuteman's kegel hold approach and PEZen's competing RK approach but by that time I found I could often just resist by relaxing. I knew I'd stopped one because you get this pleasant tingling sensation of the energy that would have gone into the muscle dissipating outwards instead.

Then maybe 6 months after starting, and I hadn't had sex at all in that time, I met a girl, and while my PE wasn't beaten, I was a lot better. I was I suppose a bit of a K/RK slave as you say at that time, which I could handle considering the last time I'd had sex before that I would cum in seconds, but honestly we had sex a lot and it wasn't long before I just stopped thinking about it. From then, whenever I had occasional involutaries, I'd kegel hold for a few seconds and then release, and before long, whilst they were rare by then anyway, I just stopped getting them at all. Body training, right?

Sorry, I know I always say too much.. I'm not very good at keeping things short and sweet, just thought I'd tell you how thing went for me, and if you relate to any of it, I hope it's helpful.