Ongoing response and St John's effectiveness

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Interesting finding.

I experimented with 5-HTP and St. John's Wort some months back, as well as using MDMA recreationally. Seriously effective, probably too much so. And GPs know about this, and are prescribing SSRIs for Premature Ejaculation more and more frequntly. That may not be a bad thing in my opinion. Short term anyway, since dependency is not fixing the issue. However, I understand the chemistry and physiology fairly well for a layman. What all this has in common is serotonin. And all of these things affect your serotonin levels slightly differently, and in different ways. As, incidentally, does your diet and general health. Anyway, I haven't done any of those things for a good while now.

I also haven't done any kegels, other exercises or any conscious physical restraints (RKing at PoNR etc) for a long time.

Why? because things seemed to be generally OK. Sometimes better than others, sure, but manageable. Now it's also not so frequent any more that I get into the "dead zone" - where it's actually hard work to achieve orgasm or reach PoNR. Typically, I get this via the Twenty Minute Effect (<-- link) where after 15-25 minutes of constant but gentle sexual stimulation, it's possible (maybe typical?) to become desensitised enough that further stimuation doesn't accelerate you towards PoNR any more unless you really amplify things. A bit like running in mud. It's GREAT if you get there, as it switches off your hair trigger and you will likely be able to fuck indefinitely if you keep your self-awareness up. But it can be elusive.

So where am I now, after two years of working on myself, trying things out, some good, some bad...?

Well for a while, I've been basically relying on pace and trying to get into the "dead zone" / "20 minute zone", and sometimes I get there, sometimes I don't. Annoyingly, it has started to become gradually harder to achieve over the last year or so. Otherwise, I rely on sexual repertoire. I don't have quite the hair trigger I did two years ago, thanks to all this work, so that gives me enough room to do all sorts of other things, go down on her, lick her body with my fingers inside her etc, stop and change position if I'm actually fucking her to get a breather and so on. It's all fine, the sex is good. But I'm not lasting as long as I did a year ago.

Then this week, I found my unfinished bottle of St John's. I've had two tabs, with two days between, and while I've been on my own, or rather without female company, and only masturbated a few times, well since the first one, my response has been straight back to where I was a year ago, and I've had to really work hard to get to PoNR again.

I'm wondering now how long this lasts, so I might not take another for a week and try again to see where I'm at. I'll let you know. But suffice it to say that this is a pretty dramatic response that I can ONLY attribute to the St. John's, as nothing else in my diet or daily routine has changed for months.

Just thought you should know. I'd be really interested to hear if anyone here has tried St. John's alone as a possible treatment, with no other input, so, no kegels, no 5-HTP, no meditating, nothing. Just the St. John's. Maybe even give it a go? I'd love to hear it's not just me.

EDIT: Just want to point out that I'm not saying kegels aren't a good thing, that the pelvic floor strength isn't important, I'm sure it is, and I'm a constant advocate of the self awareness kegels and edging give you, but this thread is just about St. Johns Wort.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Update. No such dead zone today after two days without taking the St. John's. Just took one, so I'll try again later.

Sorry, this should really be in my progress log huh.

[steveshorny1 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close steveshorny1]

Awesome!!!
I'm definately going out to buy some St Johns Wort Today Spanky. Fingers crossed

[QuickTrigger Member Find all posts View Profile Close QuickTrigger]

Hmm, interesting. I took 5-HTP supplements months ago and it seemed to work, although the results are confounded by the fact that I was concomitantly doing several others things too (edging, kegels, visualizing, etc)...

I also have a bottle of unfinished 5-HTP lying around. And I've also ceased all pelvic exercises. AND I also have a girlfriend. So, my point is, I'll try to experiment on myself and let you know how it goes Spanky.

BTW, on pure speculation alone, do you think the 5-HTP effects are immediate, short-term, mid-term, or long term? Meaning, if I pop a pill right now, will it alter my performance tonight? Tomorrow? Or do I have to take it for a week, or month, before results kick in?

[steveshorny1 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close steveshorny1]

well, just on the 5HTP. I tried a big ol bottle of that stuff a while back. Took it every night, sometimes two just to up the dosage. I didnt feel it's affects at all.
The bottle from memory i think was about 500mg caps and there was like 200 caps in the bottle. I would have thought that taking those every night would have had some impact, but for me there was no improvement.

I'm hoping the St Johns Wort does something for me. Best of luck

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Well 5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin. Via Tryptophan (the TP of HTP): an essential amino acid ... which for anyone who doesn't know means your body cannot create it, and it has to come from diet (or otherwise). So as far as I understand, it doesn't *stimulate* serotonin production, rather it makes serotonin production more available if needed and lets your body make more if exhausted.

St John's on the other hand is as far as I know basically a natural SSRI, so it blocks serotonin absorption (reuptake) in the brain and thereby increases serotonin levels. As long as your body can produce it. It's often cited as a natural antidepressant for exactly this reason.

Now if there's too much serotonin in your system, this can really mess you up (serotonin syndrome etc) so we have to be careful. But if there's too little, it can lead to depression. And, it would seem from my experience, contribute to premature ejaculation. God knows how or why, but there it is.

So I tried taking both for a bit, since I'd had a dramatic effect from mdma, and neither 5-htp nor st. John's were as dramatic with respect to ejaculation control.

THIS IS A BAD IDEA. DO NOT DO THIS.

I'm guessing that with st. John's plugging the holes and my brain not getting the serotonin it was expecting, then it asked for more, which has the desired happy and orgasm-numbing effect. But rather than exhaust my brain's supply, the 5-htp allowed my brain/body to make more, flooding my brain. Which seems to be dangerous.

The difference with mdma is that it's not only a really effective SSRI making you really happy and lovey, but it's also a dead powerful amphetamine so you get the physical high as well.

I'm pretty sure now that SSRIs exhaust your serotonin supply. Or at least they can, and if it's not replenished that can bring you right down (hence mdma users' familiar condition : suicide Tuesday) ... So I think 5-htp would probably be a good thing to take after an SSRI or ecstasy binge (NOT at the same time).

Point being, I don't think 5-htp will increase serotonin levels, it just lets your body make more, whereas st. john's will stimulate more *demand*.

Long answer, I'm sorry. I talk too much in real life too. But the answer is, I believe, that 5-htp will only help increase serotonin levels if yours are low, and your diet doesn't provide it at a gentle level (remember, too much is bad), and if you can stimulate demand in some way. There are loads of natural and normal ways to stimulate serotonin demand. exercise, laughter and so on, you do not need an SSRI to get more serotonin in your system (though it is a dramatic way to do so), however your supply is limited by 5-htp intake (diet or supplementary).

I was told a while back that 5-htp takes a course of say a few weeks to have any discernible effect. That was my experience, and I think the above is why. St John's on the other hand works instantly, say within an hour, like mdma does, but without the amphetamine buzz obviously. And like mdma, the ejaculation control effects last a further day or two.

Why this is? I have no idea. Arousal is mental. Serotonin is instrumental in how your brain manages emotion, mood and, so it would seem, arousal. Best guess I have. But it's all related, and having tried various combos of all this stuff now, it works. Well enough for doctors to prescribe similar pharmaceuticals because they don't get any kickbacks from st. John's. But they do the same thing.

My advice, based on my experience this year, while I can't promise results, I'm fairly confident now, is to stop the 5-htp for a few days, and try st. John's instead.

I'm sure that the trick is about balance here, balance between demand and supply in your brain, and that would take an expert to judge appropriately. And look how many people are dependent on antidepressants now, so I'm assuming that medical science is either not very good at judging too, or there's a big pharma conspiracy to keep people on them.

And I'm not an expert on neurochemistry either. Obviously. So be sensible, don't take too much, follow the directions on the bottle, don't take it in combination with any other prescription drugs etc etc, and DON'T TAKE A COURSE OF 5-HTP AND ST. JOHN'S TOGETHER.

But in my experience, it works.

[steveshorny1 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close steveshorny1]

Spanky - that makes a whole lotta sense - i think.

Kinda explains why the 5HTP alone really did nothing for me. I will let you know how the St Johns Wort goes. Sounds like it may have the desired affect.

I never bothered buying a second bottle of 5HTP since it did nothing, so I'll see how this ST Johns works.

Thanks for explaining

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Good luck man. Let us know how it goes

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Update. This morning, nearly a day after taking the St. John's, I was in control again. And came harder than usual as well.

I may have confused things before by taking and doing lots of things at once, but this definitely works for me. I'm going with one every two days.

[Glamissand1 Senior Member Member of the Month March 2014 Find all posts View Profile Close Glamissand1]

What was the time difference? Were you lasting longer while hard pounding or controlled thrusts.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

I'm way less highly sensitive and my hair trigger is gone, so if I want to last longer, I can just slow down, or shift my mental focus, and then carry on effortlessly.

When I'm super-sensitive, as in old style PreE world, I've got no chance.

It's like my PoNR is a "circle" that with Pre E is enormous, and even the tiniest bit close, like 6 or 7/10 is then inevitable, but with Pre E beaten, the PoNR "circle" is really tiny, like 9.5/10 toward climax before I can't stop it. When my PoNR is that small and that close to climax, I also find I can stop or hover really close, I'll get spasms and mini orgasmic waves but I can sustain it, slow down for a second (I don't always need to) and carry on fucking or masturbating. Sometimes when it's that high, PoNR can even be elusive and I'll have to really speed up to get there. I've been unable to finish someimes after a long sex session.

Serotonin enhancing supplements always have this effect on me. I've been there with MDMA countless times, and while I tried St. John's for a good while last year, I may have mixed it up wih other things so it was hard to tell what was working and what wasn't. Now though, I know St. John's is definitely doing the same thing, just not quite as dramatically as MDMA did.

I would also point out that it's entirely possible (knowing my history) that my physiology is messed up anyway and serotonin/SSRI geared treatment is helping restore a natural balance I should have anyway, not simply having a pure chemical effect that isn't addressing the problem.

[no minute man Member Find all posts View Profile Close no minute man]

Just to be clear, the results you're speaking of above, "less sensitive, hair trigger gone" in your mind are due exclusively to st. johns wort every other day or so? I know short term fixes are often frowned upon on here, but i've read much of what you've written on this site and tend to trust your opinion, so if that's what you're claiming i need to get me some. Everyone's different, but shit, worth a shot.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Yes. Exclusively. Though having the physical and mental prctice to make the most of it helped a lot too. This result won't give you control, it'll just turn the voltage down. But that with good pelvic floor balance and self awareness will.

I know things aren't as straightforward as this, I know there are a lot more possible contributory factors, and I know that ignoring anything else, pelvic floor balance, psychological profile, general diet and health would be arrogant and naive.

But by the same token, serotonin levels (and dopamine, norepinephrine etc), which are a normal part of the human body that fluctuate for many reasons also DO have an effect. A profound one. So ignoring that would be arrogant and naive too.

I know this may be frowned upon here. But it's not the same thing as recommending steroids over sustained working out. Neurochemistry is complicated and influenced by much. Not least 20 years of on/off recreational ecstasy usage. So it's not "cheating". We're not here to stop cumming so quickly for a sense of personal achievement or some kind of competition, we're here to overcome a crippling problem we face. And on that basis, I will leave NO stone unturned. I won't lie, I'll take the quick fix if it's available, but I'm not looking for that to the detriment of all others. It's taken me two years to get here, to try many things, and to understand my own mind and body, so this isn't a quick fix for me.

But imagine how stupid I'd look if it turned out that serotonin levels were the sole key natural and physical contributory factor to Pre E, and I ignored it because I "didn't like how it looked" and it was "too easy".

[no minute man Member Find all posts View Profile Close no minute man]

Your original post says that this re-experimentation with st. johns wort has been "without female company".... is that still the case? I'm definitely interested to hear what the result is when your back in the saddle with a real woman

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Your original post says that this re-experimentation with st. johns wort has been "without female company".... is that still the case? I'm definitely interested to hear what the result is when your back in the saddle with a real woman

It'll be the same. I've had quite a lot of sex this year and will be having a foursome this weekend with a couple of swingers.