Success! But not cured.

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

Thanks for your advice minuteman. I plan to continue with all my current routines, RKs, stretching etc. I am also going to try and "play around" near the PONR in an attempt to get my body used to the higher arousal and to try and stop this habit kegel. I may also start up a kegel routine soon, since I feel my pelvic floor is fairly well balanced now.

On a side note, in experimenting today with ways to try and keep my PF releaxed near the PONR, I discovered that when standing up my PF was much more relaxed- I even got some porn on the go (sorry ), and it took more than 20 minutes of fast tempo going to achieve orgasm. Though I still involuntarily performed the long kegel hold just before the PONR, I managed to get much closer before it happened. Minuteman, is your PF in a completely relaxed state just before the PONR?

[Minuteman Member of the Month March 2013. Find all posts View Profile Close Minuteman]

It really depends, in an ideal situation my pelvic floor is kinda engaged but not engaged (I can explain it totally but it is like I am holding a kegel even when I am not) and I basically last however long I want. In an good situation my pelvic floor in generally relaxed with little to no pelvic floor movements via kegel and reverse kegel. The ideal situation was a by-product of an more serious pelvic floor routine when I did it, nowdays it is rarely like that since I no longer use pelvic floor exercises.

When near PONR (two or three strokes away from ejaculating) my pelvic floor is more engaged than tensed but if I do a reverse kegel it becomes tensed and it drives me to PONR, if I do a kegel it drives me of PONR but in most cases will provoke involuntary kegels of some kind, so instead of doing any pelvic floor movement i try to slow don the pace. However, I came to an conclusion that effect of kegels and reverse kegels vary greatly between people. (most find reverse kegel driving them away from PONR when near PONR for example).

[JamesMonroe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close JamesMonroe]

You're welcome and good luck.

hmmm... i guess someone deleted what i wrote before this.... because there is nothing there.

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

hmmm... i guess someone deleted what i wrote before this.... because there is nothing there.

I never read anything there either
Try again?

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

Okay, today a bit about involuntary kegels. From recent research and many thanks to minuteman, I've come to realise there are different sorts of involuntary kegels.

I have experienced three distinct sorts of invulntary kegels, which I will describe in more detail now:

1. Poor pelvic floor balance IKs. These occur *constantly during stimulation, and are due to too much kegels and too little reverse kegels. These are widely understood on the forum, and can be cured restoring balance with a reverse kegel routine and/or holding a light reverse kegel during stimulation. I have mostly rid myself of these.

2. Habit IKs. These, for me atleast are less understood. I assume they come from kegeling myself to orgasm and, when I was young I discovered I could get a good feeling from doing doing a kegel and just *touching- nothing else, my penis. Wheras the other type where short burts, these are much stonger and longer kegel holds, and can last up to 10 secs or more (this is weird since they can last for longer than I can hold a kegel for normally?!?) Despite pretty much having a balanced pelvic floor now, I have not been able to rid myself of these buggers. They occur at two times, when I pull my foreskin all the way down hard/ push my penis hard to one side with an erection, and when I am at a high level of arousal. I am experimenting with ways to deal with these, though I am finding it very difficult since they are so strong and ingrained into my muscle memory that I cannot overcome them with a reverse kegel.

3. Spasm kegels. These happen at PONR and are used to expel ejaculate and are not a bad thing.

I have written this down mostly to help myself understand the processes at work here, but if it helps anyone else; that's great also and feel free to share your own experiences

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

From advice recieved from minuteman, I will be starting a kegel routine. The reason for this is now my pelvic floor is pretty much relaxed, it is now very weak- I cannot hold a regular kegel for more the 5 seconds. It could be possible that the long involuntary kegel hold I experience is down to weakness of the pelvic floor.

I will be starting at level 0 of the DO guide, and will watch very carefully for any negative effects, such as the return of involuntaries during stimulation. However, I feel that so long as I keep up the RKs, and focus on staying relaxed during edging that this is a wise descision to make.

I have been following the routine for 4 days now, so will post my initial observations.
1. My regular kegels are EXTREMELY WEAK, the 5 seconds I mentioned previosly is if I am lucky! (I can hold for longer than this, but only if I keep "reapplying".)
2. My isolation is meh. I can isolate front and back kegels, though they are so weak its almost as if I need to use them both at the same time for any noticeable affect. I can do front RK pretty well, since this is what Ive been using to stay relaxed. The back reverse kegel is very hard to get down. Could be a 4-way balance issue?
3. I've had a strange slight feeling of control since starting the routine. Its like I'm finding out more about my own body, and I've had another chance to review my situation and what the future holds. I now believe that I've never had a massively unbalanced PF, since I've never done a kegel routine. The issue probably is all just habit, muscle memory, whatever you want to call it. Kegelling myself to orgasm just got locked in. Of course, this could also have had the knock on effect of creating a slight inbalance in my PF. Over arousal was also an issue.

So, I plan to continue with the routine, and will post back here with more observations in future. Long term, I'd like to try DO/MMO, but I really want to feel I'm in complete control normally before starting this- this means eliminating that long hard kegel which is a definite barrier. Ive made a sepearte thread about that, any input would be extremely valuable. Thanks.

[Cantona7 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Cantona7]

Hey!

My case is very similar to yours. I have also recently started DO guide. Isolation and strength are two different things and both need a lot of time and patience. Isolation comes first- try not to force your reps (with any of the 4 kegels- this is very common with reverse kegel and reverse root lock flexes)

Over arousal is my a big issue for me as well. I plan to go on to Arousal Control Program after I am done with Levels 0,1,2

Good Luck!!
C7

[Minuteman Member of the Month March 2013. Find all posts View Profile Close Minuteman]

From advice recieved from minuteman, I will be starting a kegel routine. The reason for this is now my pelvic floor is pretty much relaxed, it is now very weak- I cannot hold a regular kegel for more the 5 seconds. It could be possible that the long involuntary kegel hold I experience is down to weakness of the pelvic floor.

I will be starting at level 0 of the DO guide, and will watch very carefully for any negative effects, such as the return of involuntaries during stimulation. However, I feel that so long as I keep up the RKs, and focus on staying relaxed during edging that this is a wise descision to make.

I have been following the routine for 4 days now, so will post my initial observations.
1. My regular kegels are EXTREMELY WEAK, the 5 seconds I mentioned previosly is if I am lucky! (I can hold for longer than this, but only if I keep "reapplying".)
2. My isolation is meh. I can isolate front and back kegels, though they are so weak its almost as if I need to use them both at the same time for any noticeable affect. I can do front RK pretty well, since this is what Ive been using to stay relaxed. The back reverse kegel is very hard to get down. Could be a 4-way balance issue?
3. I've had a strange slight feeling of control since starting the routine. Its like I'm finding out more about my own body, and I've had another chance to review my situation and what the future holds. I now believe that I've never had a massively unbalanced PF, since I've never done a kegel routine. The issue probably is all just habit, muscle memory, whatever you want to call it. Kegelling myself to orgasm just got locked in. Of course, this could also have had the knock on effect of creating a slight inbalance in my PF. Over arousal was also an issue.

So, I plan to continue with the routine, and will post back here with more observations in future. Long term, I'd like to try DO/MMO, but I really want to feel I'm in complete control normally before starting this- this means eliminating that long hard kegel which is a definite barrier. Ive made a sepearte thread about that, any input would be extremely valuable. Thanks.

1. Do not reaply, also do not hold your kegels to long you, since you should be doing clenches and not holds (1-2 second is more then enough).

2. Isolations is of less importance, your intention itself is enough in time your body will fix the isolation thing (also the chain exercises from level 0 will help)

3. Do not over think it just go along with it, remember that in many cases our mind is more out enemy then our friend, listen mostly to the body. Enjoy the good sensations or progress and don't plan that is what the routine is for. Also do not rush go with your own pace and you will surely reach the goal quicker that you think or if you force to bunch it all in one week per sublevel.


Your both long term and present goal should be to finish level 0 routine, do not bother yourself with the future. I am constantly poiting this out because it is very important to be thinking about the now rather than the future, especially when you are doing the routines, your full attention should be in the now.

Level 0 isn't level 0 because it is just the base line or the easiest, it is the foundation, and how good and how much your devote here will echo in return in your future levels (if you even get the need for them).

Be sure to follow Cantona7 progress, since he just recently started, you should both share obervations and post it in your topic. If both of you have some questions for me, feel free to post them in your journals and pm me with the link so that others as well can get informed or suggest something.

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

Thanks for the advice guys, as always it is greatly appreciated and valued. However, today I am going to write about a real strange edging session I had last night.

For me, edging normally follows this patern:
20-45 mins of continued stimulation. During this time, the feeling is pleasurable but nothing majorly intense.
Sometime during this interval, either I get too aroused or just bored and I approach PONR, the feeling gets greater.
I either stop and go back to the first stage or orgasm. This of course is much more pleasurable.
This is called the sexual response cycle, you can find graphs of it by googling. I've been following this ever since I started edging/masturbating.

However, last night was completely different. I did the normal edging l, but it went on for around 45 mins, so quite long. After this, my arousal started to increase as per usual, but instead of getting involuntary kegels and approaching PONR the pleasure just increased immensely. If you imagine the graph, instead of going from plateau to orgasm, my pleasure increased, then capped off at a level just short of orgasm. I was basically in a state of "not quite" orgasming. I felt that I could've stayed like this for ever, as far as I am aware there was no pelvic floor movement whatsoever. Quite honestly, it was the best thing I ever felt. It was amazing. I only orgasmed and ejaculated because I wanted to see if I could lol. The orgasm was more of an extension of the pleasure, not the huge leap up it normally is. Don't get me wrong, the orgasm was just as good as usual if not better, but I was already experiencing such amazing pleasure.

Now, I don't believe this could've been possible without first balancing my pelvic floor, but I think this was mostly a mental experience. I've never been one for all this yin/yang/meditation stuff, I've always classed it as trash, but maybe I might have to change my view. I focused on letting the sensation spread to my body, rather than focusing on my dick. Almost like a whole body experience. I don't know if this was the case, or if there is some other explanation, but frankly I don't care as ling as I can replicate this in the future!

Now some observations about this:
I was really tired, maybe I was hallucinating lol.
I did some ballooning of the penis head first, while holding a RK to stop the habit involuntary kegels I get from this area.
There was NO pelvic floor movement during the intense pleasure, kegel or RK.
My eiaculation pumped out rather than the normal dribble I get.
I've been following a kegel routine for around a week now.
The sessions was really long by my standards.
I stayed in this intense pleasure state for around 10-15 minutes

I've not had a chance to try this again yet, I want to wait until I'm horny and have plenty of time so that I don't rush. But, if anyone could explain what this was, if they've had it before, and how to go about doing it again, that would be amazing.

Sorry this was so long, but it was really hard to explain properly, like I said I've never liked this mantra or whatever it is stuff, and I apologise to anyone who thinks its tosh, but it may well be worth a try!

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

Maybe this is a result of objectifying orgasm? This had some similarities to the first ever time I masturbated, but then I had no control so the intense pleasure only lasted about 30 seconds to a minute I think. Perhaps I need to learn to enjoy the sensations without orgasm. This is particularly relevant as a did not ejaculste during the previous two sessions, which is something I rarely ever do.

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

Tried to repeat this twice unsucessfully. Think I probably rushed in my excitment/nerves.

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

With respect to my previous posts, I believe what I experienced was a soft wave orgasm. I have been informed that this is somewhat of a random occurrence, and should not be something I aim for. I will be continuing with my current plans and try to forget about this, however I have learned much from this experience.

Firstly, I do chase after orgasm too much. I focus so much on this, that I can not enjoy the pleasure I get without orgasming. This is a mental issue that I must work on. I came across this " https://www.pegym.com/forums/prematu...y-journey.html " thread, and what the OP says about those with premature ejaculation not having a plateau phase makes perfect sense to me. I may consider a period of no masturbation as outlined in that thread.

Secondly, having new experiences and a positive outlook is essential to maximising your success. As many of the senior members point out, far too many people post with the "tried everything, didn't work" attitude. I try my best not ever to fall into that category. However, these people may have a point, albeit it not the one they intend to have. The tried and tested methods outlined in this forum, pelvic floor routine, arosual control, Dry orgasm etc, MOST CERTAINLY DO WORK. However, they all take time, a lot of time, perhaps seemingly with no results and this can give people the negative attitude. The way to combat this is to continue reading around the forums for other approaches, or experiment for yourself. If you pay attention to your own body, you will make many discoveries, and this can make your journey less of a chore and more of an experience. This is one of the reasons I keep this log, as well as to provide help/inspiration and also to recieve those things from others. So, in light of that, here is a thread with a relatively new approach that somehow managed to pass me by- " https://www.pegym.com/forums/prematu...ic-muscle.html ". Give it a read, but please realise the importance of committing to the tried and tested methods in the forum.

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

Have been following the kegel routine outlined in minutemans dry orgasm guide for around 3 weeks now. I am still on the first sublevel, but am about ready to advance. I have seen amazing improvements already. Not only can I last longer and feel more relaxed, but the pleasure is much greater as well.
I will stress that these improvements are down to the kegels in the routine. There is a lot of mistrust regarding kegels on this forum, yet for me they have increased my performance so much in such a short amount of time.
To anyone with Pre E who has weak kegels, can't hold one for more than a few seconds, I would definitely recommend kegels. It may be that involuntary spasms can be caused by a tired, weak pelvic floor.

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

Attempted to go onto 0.2 of minutemans routine. Boy, was I not ready! I reached half way through, so 120 individual exercises, and kegel and root lock were practically refusing to move. I stil see this as a success, since 0.1 contains 80 individual movements, so I still did 50% more than usual. I will go back down to 0.1 for at least another week or so before attempting to move on again. After all, 80 to 240 is one heck of a step up. Also, with the exercises, I found I could isolate easy the exercises with kegel to reverse kegel, or root lock to reverse root lock. But I had a lot of difficulty with the ones that involved the two different muscles, such as kegel to reverse root lock.

Overall, this routine is having a large positive impact on my stamina, probably because I have a weak pelvic floor.

As I've already mentioned, rushing to orgasm is also a large problem. Since I've probably never had a proper response cycle, I am unsure how good the pleasure is meant to be during stimulation, but from recent experiences I would say that the pleasure before orgasm should feel almost as good as the orgasm itself. Once you realise this, rushing to orgasm stops being a problem. It also helps to go into some edging sessions thinking " I am not going to ejaculate this session" since it removes the goal.

[ammonite Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ammonite]

There's been a lot of change for me over the past 2 weeks. Firstly, I've started compiling a list of causes of pre e, which can now be found in my signature. Any help here is welcome, please check it out.

Secondly, my edging sessions have been hugely transformed. While not really any different in duration, the feeling is entirely different. I've gone from little to no pleasure except when orgasming, to spending over 30 minutes at really high arousal and pleasure. It's intense. I actually really enjoy my edging sessions now. I think learning to control myself at this pleasure is probably the last step in truly curing myself of pre e. I don't really know what made this transformation occur, but whatever did, it's fantastic, the pleasure is at levels I couldn't even have imagined before. Anyway, the moral is to learn to enjoy your edging sessions. Ignore orgasm. Forget about it and things will be so much better. You can have orgasmic pleasure without actually orgasming, once you realise this.