Progress

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

I like this feeling of being in love. Not with anyone in particular, but, definitely, certain people can cause it to happen more easily. Once the "in love" switch is flipped, I have a feeling of being in love towards everyone. Now I'm pondering the possibility that this feeling is completely within my own control, and therefore I can "flip my own switch", so-to-speak. (That phrase makes it sound like I'm mentally/emotionally masturbating, which I guess wouldn't be far from the truth)

I'll write more as I ponder it further.

[BTBrian Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BTBrian]

I'm not sure I like what you're doing anymore Qarzan. I liked when you were trying to better yourself and discover yourself. I know that I'm not completely in tune with what you are doing, but in my opinion you already are or will soon start hurting a lot of people. For example, you invited Y to the party, spent some intimate time with her, and then ditched her for other women. I understand that you think and want that to be acceptable behavior but in reality that kind of thing will really hurt most people's feelings. I think you need to tell girls you are polyamorous BEFORE developing any intimacy with them. You claim to want to make everyone happy, but really what you are doing isn't much further off from what a "player" does. Making women thinking you like them and are interested in them only to get with other girls is going to hurt a lot of people, and I know you don't want to hurt them.

On a side not, are you really ok with H having other lovers? It sounds like you really want her for yourself.

Sorry if my post came across as rude, that wasn't my intention at all! Best of luck to you going forward

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

I understand what you're saying. And you're right, I don't want to hurt other people.

Part of what I don't understand is, why does intimacy have to be reserved for lovers? Can't friends be intimate and share things about themselves? Y and I were talking about our upbringing. I wanted to continue talking to her, but she stood up and then introduced me to her friend. After that we danced 2 songs, then it seemed she wanted to spend some time with other people, so I let her go. I took that opportunity to spend some time with my other friends, too.

It was up to Y to re-initiate contact if she wanted to. I am not going to hide who I am; I will continue to show affection to my friends the way I feel comfortable with. Y has the right to stay away from me if she feels uncomfortable with this, but I also don't want to be someone that I'm not just to get closer to Y. Does this make sense?

Besides, announcing that I'm polyamorous in the very beginning, before I even know if I like this person, seems a bit too much. Kinda like how I said we need a bit of smalltalk and getting to know each other first. I felt that my conversation with Y hadn't gotten past the small talk phase, and so wasn't in the right place yet for me to announce this.

With H, the thing is I don't even think about the other men she's with. It's none of my business, and that's the way it should be. When she's with me, she's with me. When she's over there, she's over there. That's it. That's why, in my thoughts, there are no other men. I know there are, but they don't matter in the relationship between me and H, so I don't give them any thought.

EDIT: I think I should add here, that both K and Heather are strictly monogamous, with someone other than me. However, they share my views on how affection should be shared between friends, since we brought it up in conversation, and had a verbal agreement amongst ourselves. This is why we are able to be so expressive with each other; we each understand what it means to everyone else, and we have removed the possibility of misunderstanding.

In addition, I have also seen H kiss K, so even though H and I have not brought up the topic for discussion, I suspect she feels the same as us.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

Hi, I'm going to answer some things more fully here. First, I want to say, I'm not answering out of a need to defend myself. I'm taking this as an opportunity to express myself. I appreciate the points you bring up, and I foresee that I will have to do a lot of this in the future, mostly face-to-face in spoken conversation, so writing things out in words is good practice.

I think I should define "intimacy" the way I mean it, to clear up some issues. To me, one kind of "intimacy" is when you share something about yourself that you normally wouldn't tell a stranger or someone you just met. For example, that I'm divorced, or my father died 4 years ago, or I was abused as a child. Sharing these things causes the speaker to become vulnerable, and shows trust. The other person can then reciprocate by revealing something similar about themselves, or at least sympathize. This establishes a mutuality of trust, which opens the door to deeper intimacy (ie- sharing of deeper personal information).

The way I express myself, when someone begins sharing something that is a painful memory, I automatically react with physical touch: I hold hands, I put my arm around their shoulder, I lean my head closer to theirs. This is not specific behavior that I reserve for a girlfriend; I do this with all my friends. Establishing intimacy, to me, is something friends do.

This extends to hugging, and even light kissing. Yes, I kiss my friends. Admittedly, I kiss fewer men than I do women, simply because I'm hetero, and other hetero men tend to be less open to it. A lot of whether the kiss is friendly or romantic really depends on how the other person responds to it. A friendly kiss is light and airy, sometimes there is no response other than, "thank you." A romantic kiss is passionate, involves more than half a second of contact, and sometimes there is some heavy breathing and other kinds of touching involved.

I tell women about my polyamory after our first date together; mutuality of interest has been established on a deeper level, and by that time she understands me better and knows that I am a caring, loving person. Too early, and she won't even put any energy into trying to understand what polyamory actually is. Also, revealing myself as polyamorous can have some backlashes if that information gets out. I don't want to be telling it to people that don't care about any repurcussions (from bosses, strangers, teachers, etc) that I might encounter.

I liked when you were trying to better yourself and discover yourself. ...what you are doing isn't much further off from what a "player" does. Making women thinking you like them and are interested in them only to get with other girls is going to hurt a lot of people, and I know you don't want to hurt them.

I am still trying to better and discover myself. I am learning from everyone around me. All these things that I'm trying, are from observations in the people around me. It could be just that I'm in an extremely liberal community with very radical ideas of love and sex.

I think the main difference between what a "player" does, and what I do, is that a player is pretending to care in order to get sex. In my case, I actually care. For me, polyamory is not about the sex; it's about love, and the freedom to express it as I see fit. In actuality, I'm not having any more sex now than I was since the divorce, which is zero. The difference is the amount of love and affection in my life. I acknowledge the fact that I have sexual desires, which in the past I've tried to deny, but also respect everybody else's boundaries, so long as they communicate them to me.

I hope this answers some of your questions. Please feel free to ask more if you need further clarification.

[BTBrian Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BTBrian]

I totally understand where you're coming from. It is a very difficult situation I'm sure. I know you're not a mean guy and I'm not saying that. It's definitely going to be difficult not to hurt people though. You definitely shouldn't not be yourself in order to please a person, and I'm not saying what you did with Y was wrong. In all healthy relationships both people should be able to go off and do their own thing. But the thing is, most people are not going to expect you to have other girls all over you if you invite them out and have a good time with them. That aspect of what your doing could lead to hurting a lot of people. But I really don't know how else you would be able to handle the situation, like you said you do tell them before things get serious. So I guess you might have to get used to some people maybe thinking you're a bit of a jerk, which might be hard to deal with.

I hope you don't look at what I say as an attack to your new lifestyle, I'm just more trying to spur a discussion and this way you can get another point of view

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

Thanks for being brave enough to bring these things to my attention. I appreciate when people question me. It makes me question myself, and tests my self-confidence and ability to communicate.

I did think about the repurcussion that people will see me as a "player" or that they will think I'm a bit of a jerk. Then I think about my divorce, when I sacrificed my own happiness in order to appease someone else's sense of right and wrong. Needless to say, that didn't work out well.

I feel like all this time spent on improving my self-esteem and confidence has led me to this stage where now I can face the world with this new outlook on life, love, and happiness, and be able to withstand any attacks. The road ahead will be a challenge, for sure, but it's one that I'm looking forward to.

[TheSnitch Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TheSnitch]

Dude, I'm headed down the same road you are Qarzan. My thought process is shifting so fundamentally away from what's standard, it sometimes scares me. Though you're putting all of this in to practice man. I think that's awesome!! You have developed immensely since you came on the boards. Personally, I think there is a new sexual revolution of polyamory coming. The old model clearly doesn't work, even when it does it rarely works in a way for ultimate happiness of everyone - it's a model limited by fear. The fear of needing to possesses another person or else you don't matter to them, and vice versa.

But to truly experience another human being, for who they are - not for what they can be to you, and be happy that not only do they get to show who they are to you but to others too. And you get to do the same. That's an idea that's actually centered around Love. Not fear. (Sorry, I went super hippie for a second lol.)

I think the journey you're headed down is kick ass. Enjoy it man.

[BTBrian Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BTBrian]

The old model clearly doesn't work, even when it does it rarely works in a way for ultimate happiness of everyone - it's a model limited by fear. The fear of needing to possesses another person or else you don't matter to them, and vice versa.

I disagree big time. I think that many people act out of fear, but the people who are successful in relationships are the people that are happy with themselves and their lives, and then the addition of love to their life just supplements it. I agree relationships built on the fear of being alone will never work, but I don't think all monogamous relationships are like that. We won't continue the discussion more and highjack Qarzan's thread though

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

I will say this, though: monogamy works for some. It should be respected as a valid option. Many of my friends here have explored polyamory and decided they were happier being monogamous.

[TTBB Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TTBB]

I disagree big time. I think that many people act out of fear, but the people who are successful in relationships are the people that are happy with themselves and their lives, and then the addition of love to their life just supplements it. I agree relationships built on the fear of being alone will never work, but I don't think all monogamous relationships are like that. We won't continue the discussion more and highjack Qarzan's thread though

I agree with you BTB

[TheSnitch Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TheSnitch]

I disagree big time. I think that many people act out of fear, but the people who are successful in relationships are the people that are happy with themselves and their lives, and then the addition of love to their life just supplements it. I agree relationships built on the fear of being alone will never work, but I don't think all monogamous relationships are like that. We won't continue the discussion more and highjack Qarzan's thread though

To me, monogamy is similar to saying I only have 1 friend, they are my Best friend and I try to make them be all I need from someone. But, it's hard because they simply are who they are and can't fulfill all of my wants and desires nor I theirs. Polyamory is a friendship with many, some who make you laugh, some who make you think, some who get you up and out and some who you just like to relax and share everything with.

Humans are the only primate that mate for life - a high divorce rate isn't the only thing that shows monogamy isn't all it's cracked up to be, infidelity that doesn't lead to divorce by both men and women, people who are estranged but never get divorced, those who have open relationships or swing.

I'm not saying monogamy isn't a valid option for some it's just got a lot of almost unattainable expectations.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

Here is the thing: even though now I identify as polyamorous, I can't quite tell whether my previous marriage fell apart because I was poly trying to fit into a mono role, or if I (and my ex) were just not that good at being mono.

50% divorce rate, for me, is too ambiguous to draw any conclusions from: inconclusive and doesn't support either side.

I'm saying all this to kind of balance out the argument here. I feel I've been posting a lot about polyamory and not much about monogamy because, well polyamory is new to me. But, I can see how the same things I'm learning could also lead me to believe that I was just doing monogamy wrong; no communication, no other friends, restricted affection towards others... All of these can also be incorporated into monogamy, as K is showing me.

[BTBrian Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BTBrian]

Here is the thing: even though now I identify as polyamorous, I can't quite tell whether my previous marriage fell apart because I was poly trying to fit into a mono role, or if I (and my ex) were just not that good at being mono.

50% divorce rate, for me, is too ambiguous to draw any conclusions from: inconclusive and doesn't support either side.

I'm saying all this to kind of balance out the argument here. I feel I've been posting a lot about polyamory and not much about monogamy because, well polyamory is new to me. But, I can see how the same things I'm learning could also lead me to believe that I was just doing monogamy wrong; no communication, no other friends, restricted affection towards others... All of these can also be incorporated into monogamy, as K is showing me.

I totally agree with what you just posted Qarzan. I think that many of the attitudes and behaviors that make for a good polyamorous relationship also likely will make for a good monogamous relationship.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

I'm on my way back from a dance exchange in New Orleans. Stayed with a bunch of friends also from the Bay Area, 10 of us crammed into a 3-bedroom house. Only 1 of us was not from the Bay.

Had a great time, got along really well with the woman from Seattle. For some reason we just clicked. By the second day, we were pretty close; we always sat next to each other, usually leaning against each other, giving each other massages, and chatting as we walked from one stage to another. I didn't expect anything other than being friends at that point.

By the last evening, after the late night dance ended at 2am, everyone was walking back to the house. We were walking together, sharing stories and experiences. We got to the house and everyone else went in. She and I stayed outside on the stoop and chatted, holding hands, for another 2 hours, at which time taxis were arriving to take the first of us to the airport.

After another half hour, we decided to go into the courtyard and chat there. She sat on a lounge chair, I sat in another lounge chair across from her. I put her feet in my lap, took off her socks, and started massaging as we talked for another hour or so.

Then she asked, "Do you want a back rub?" I agreed, of course, and sat in front of her. This position lasted only a few minutes until we started nuzzling our noses together. This quickly turned into kissing.

Then after the third group left at around 6am, we went back inside, found an empty bed, and, well, had some fun. I didn't have any condoms, and I told her that, so we agreed not to have sex. But we did have a pretty good session of mutual masturbation, that nearly made me cum. It was great.

Anyways, just sitting here feeling good from the experience. It'd be cool to go up to Seattle to see her, maybe if I'm already there for another event. We'll see where this goes.

I also feel this puts a good perspective on what's happening between me and H; I definitely feel this Seattle woman likes me a lot more than I like her. I wouldn't mind being a bit smothered in her attention and affection, though.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

Some commonalities I've drawn from H and Seattle:

- I wasn't trying to get their attention. I was just having fun. They developed a crush on me after seeing how I naturally was.
- They each decided to act on their crush after I started revealing intimate details about my life, which leads me to believe that vulnerability is attractive. This means, they were first attracted by my confidence and good nature, then they were hooked with my ability to open up and be vulnerable around them.

This shows that I really do just have to be myself, be comfortable with showing people who I am, and not try to hide anything. This also goes to confidence; I have to be comfortable with who I am, enough so that I feel ok with telling people I've just met, about some extremely personal things, and not get defensive.

Thoughts?