Need rebuttal against socialist.

[Loftus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Loftus]

just so u know i am pro capitalist but still learning and want to sound halfway educated, any help would be appreciated..here is what he had to say


But the minimum wage in the EU is about 20 US$ It all makes sense there. I guess the USA may be in for a greater change (I hope so anyway) -- you have a huge population that could be taxed at a much higher rate than what is current. It's so funny it hasn't been done before now. I'm thankful of Mr. Obama and his socialist ideology.
As for Canada, the reason our minimum wage is still lower, is because prices of goods are still lower - we're still highly taxed on our paycheques, but because of our oil and mineral wealth we're given a break (compared to the Europeans). Gas is like 2.50 euros/litre in most EU countries!! It's just 90 to 95 cents / litre here in Canada.... we're the second leading oil exporting nation after the Kingdom (Saudi Arabia). And, most of our oil goes to the USA and China.
Get used to socialist ideology - you'll be faced with it outside your country's capitalistic bubble. (honestly!) We've already seen the failure of Capitalism.... with American auto companies going bankrupt and banks before that. Canadian banks are fine... I was so offended that the governments of the USA and Canada put money into the auto companies... propping them up after alllllllllll the many, many years they posted outrageous profits......... Capitalists should suck it up and fall on their swords so to speak - if a certain industry fails it is because of capitalist ideology. BUT it seems the governments want to prop everything up --- it's so fake and outrageous to my mind. I seriously cannot believe 2% of my paycheque goes to auto companies (it's more in your country). Anyway... I hope they still fail.

[PhibbysHammer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PhibbysHammer]

It seems fitting that the individual I'm about to introduce you to is Canadian since you're opposition is also Canadian. There are hundreds of facts and figures as well as recorded history over the last 200+ years that more than prove capitalism is surely far better than any other form of economic system in the world. Gordon Sinclair gave a stirring commentary on June 5th, 1973 following a continuous, widespread anti-American propaganda campaign around the world which pretty much began after the signing of the Paris Peace Accords 6 months earlier. I was only 10 years old but I remember. As soon as we showed the first sign of weakness in pulling out of Nam and the protestors here in this country gained massive media coverage, the world jumped on The U.S. like a school of sharks in a feeding frenzy. Much like you see today only with far less blatant bias in the media than we have now. Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian TV Broadcaster, was irate at how the U.S. was being treated in the media worldwide and gave a tremendously stirring rebuttle to what he deemed very unfair and unwarranted critisim of the U.S.
Since it is so long I will paste it in the next post along with a link to the original broadcast of Gordon Sinclair himself, where you can hear it as we heard it back in the early 70s.

[PhibbysHammer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PhibbysHammer]

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the world.
As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtze. Well, Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did, that's who.
They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Mississippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. And I was there. I saw that.
When distant cities are hit by earthquake, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.
The Marshall Plan... the Truman Policy... all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. And now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.
Now, I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.
Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or a woman on the moon?
You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are right here on our streets in Toronto, most of them... unless they are breaking Canadian laws... are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.
When the Americans get out of this bind... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the bonds, let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both of them are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.
Can you name to me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their noses at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.
I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.
This year's disasters... with the year less than half-over... has taken it all and nobody... but nobody... has helped.

ORIGINAL SCRIPT AND AUDIO
COURTESY STANDARD BROADCASTING CORPORATION LTD.

(c) 1973 BY GORDON SINCLAIR
PUBLISHED BY STAR QUALITY MUSIC (SOCAN)
A DIVISION OF UNIDISC MUSIC INC.
578 HYMUS BOULEVARD
POINTE-CLAIRE, QUEBEC,
CANADA, H9R 4T2

To hear the original broadcast click link:
Canadian Communications Foundation - Fondation Des Communications Canadiennes

[PhibbysHammer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PhibbysHammer]

For decades the U.S. has been the world's leading food supplier providing as much as 80+ % of the world's food supply at given times. Americans have been and are responsible for more than 75% of charitable donations (through tax dollars) to poor undeveloped, as well as developed industrial countries who can't for some reason take care of themselves. When it comes to personal charitable giving to the world's welfare recipients, Americans are responsible for over 95% of personal gifts (personal pockets) to any and every charity organization you can think of. Capitalism not only saved Europe from total destruction and domination by the Germans but also rebuilt their cities and towns and industry after the devastating onslaught of the Germans. Oddly enough and actually a laughable fact is that Capitalism also rebuilt the very Germany that caused the devastation. In 1941 the U.S. suffered a cheating blind side blow from professed friends in the Japanese who were sitting at negotiation tables talking business as friends only hours before bombing our Naval base at Pearl Harbor destroying nearly half our total fleet and killing over 2000 Americans, but Capitalism not only defeated the Japanese and their Great Naval Force, it also REBUILT Japan and funded what was to become one of the world's leading industrial powers. Capitalism has at the very least protected and defended most of the world from tyranny, but it also has given us those things in life we take for granted so often such as the Airplane, the automobile, the telephone, the television, the light bulb, the microwave oven, cures and medicines as well as replacement limbs and surgical procedures. Capitalism has fed the growing world's poulation for at least 3/4 of a century or more and supplied most of the items we use in every facet of our everyday lives. We could go on and on about Capitalism, but why? To what point? Anyone who refuses to acknowledge history and fact and somehow can disregard all that Capitalism has provided for the world, certainly is not mentally sound, nor reasonably worthy of debating. Those who would flat out lie and twist the truth are simply angry opponents of such a wonderfully rich and robust society and most likely are driven by anger and hate or some sort of envy that could stem from the smallest of political beliefs. Capitalism is AMERICANISM and FREEDOM, LIBERTY and the pursuit of HAPPINESS are the driving forces that motivate us to not only improve and do better for ourselves but also those who refuse to do better for themselves. Every living person on Earth owes some form of gratitude to Capitalism, however, historically proven is the fact that very few will repay even with a small kind gesture.

[Loftus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Loftus]

thanks PH, hopefully this dude has enough common sense to comprehend that!

[PhibbysHammer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PhibbysHammer]

thanks PH, hopefully this dude has enough common sense to comprehend that!

Don't count on it. You can't convince these people of anything. The one common denominator that liberal idealist, Anti-American, Anti-Capitalists share is "Disregard of Truth and Fact" coupled with a hypocracy beyiond explanation. They can't acknowledge historical facts and what is reality without destroying their own belief foundation. They must oppose everything and anything that is time tested and prooved to advance their agenda. Freedom and Capitalism is what made America Great and they can;t attack America without attacking capitalism, so be prepared for unrealistic, idiotic as well as assenine statements which will contain bogus figures and statistics and never once mention any historical event or fact of the success of capitalism.

[Loftus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Loftus]

Don't count on it. You can't convince these people of anything. The one common denominator that liberal idealist, Anti-American, Anti-Capitalists share is "Disregard of Truth and Fact" coupled with a hypocracy beyiond explanation. They can't acknowledge historical facts and what is reality without destroying their own belief foundation. They must oppose everything and anything that is time tested and prooved to advance their agenda. Freedom and Capitalism is what made America Great and they can;t attack America without attacking capitalism, so be prepared for unrealistic, idiotic as well as assenine statements which will contain bogus figures and statistics and never once mention any historical event or fact of the success of capitalism.

exactly, i think id be falling into a trap and wasting time :-/

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Don't regard myself as a capatalist or a socialist,however when did the minimum wage in the eu get to $20US?
Many people in the UK were working for wayyyy less than that, when I was there 3year odd ago.
Wouldn't even say all the EU is socialist antway, though others might.
Have found personally that argueing politics is futile.

[commie_dragon Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close commie_dragon]

True capitalism and true socialism have never and will never exist and work at the same time. Britain tried true capitalism and it resulted in massive disparity between the workers and the owners that eventually forced the government to take a role in business or face a revolution. Socialism has never been realized in any state at any time as any nation which attempted it fell into the hands of brutal dictators, and capitalist tendencies were never completely abolished. Even if capitalism was fully abolished in a democratic state the system would fail due to a lack of incentive to work.

The best system is one that allows free enterprise in non-essential services, allows unions, and has some government run services like police, fire, etc.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Umm, commie dragon that is what we have over the western world to one degree or another. Of course people get fractious about the degree etc

[kingpole Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close kingpole]

Don't count the U.S.A out yet. All we need to do is pull Wal-Mart and Target out of China then the entire world will be at our knees. And does'nt Europe and China owe us a shit load of $$$ for covering thier ass in WW2. We may be greedy sons of bitches but on the other side of that coin we are the most generous people on earth. Just wait a little bit longet and soon Canada will feel the sting of Bushwackeconomics as well. The stupidist thing this nation did was elect a moron for president. Years of stupidity has sunk this nation into a dismal abyss. I don't think Obama alone can pull us out but merely keep our heads a float. And while the red faced republicans are bitching thier blat holes out they are the cause of this great economical bull shit crisis.

Now let us pull to the left a little. This happens in our history we swing to the left then to the right. So by this a checks and balance type system, capitolism corrects itself. To many moderates in this country to keep it from swinging to far in either direction.

Now here is a prophecy and a warning. We need to bring our troops home out of Iran and Aphganistan. We are going to need them here in a few months not over there.

[kingpole Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close kingpole]

True capitalism and true socialism have never and will never exist and work at the same time. Britain tried true capitalism and it resulted in massive disparity between the workers and the owners that eventually forced the government to take a role in business or face a revolution. Socialism has never been realized in any state at any time as any nation which attempted it fell into the hands of brutal dictators, and capitalist tendencies were never completely abolished. Even if capitalism was fully abolished in a democratic state the system would fail due to a lack of incentive to work.

The best system is one that allows free enterprise in non-essential services, allows unions, and has some government run services like police, fire, etc.

I agree this gets a rep point. This is what we need to return to in America. Capitolossm woth some social restraint and fiscal repsoncibility.

[happy stud Banned Find all posts View Profile Close happy stud]

Hey Loftus just remember theres people that arent from the US that think they know it all. We have problems here in the US but not because capitalism is bad but because we have politicians that put their self interests over the country. Theres a bunch of countries that would go under in a heartbeat without our help. Canada is a good example. They would be like one of those damn African third world countries if it wasnt for us. So dont waste your time trying to educate people that have a chip on their shoulder towards us.

[Dingdong Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dingdong]

When debating, it's best to keep it simple and stay on point. There are many reasons why socialism doesn't work well, and you can't possibly debate all of them. So try asking your friend some simple questions:

If taxation is so good, why not tax everyone 100 percent? If he says 100 percent taxation is good, ask him how that's any different than slavery. If he says it's not good, ask him what level of taxation IS good. When he gives an answer, ask him how he determined that number. When he pulls an answer out of his ass, ask him why he thinks that percentage is better than an even lower number. Ask him if he's ever considered the possibility that governments get less revenue if they tax beyond a certain level. Challenge your friend's basic assumptions about how the world works.

You could ask him why he thinks giving more power to a few government bureaucrats will result in more efficient use of resources and a better distribution of wealth. Ask him to cite some real-world examples of where this has worked. He will either attempt to change the subject because he has no answer, or he will only provide a bullshit example. Ask him why the Soviet Union and Eastern Block nations had shortages and low standards of living if socialism works so well.

As far as the American banks go, they went bankrupt because government mandated loans that would have never been made in a truly free market, and also because the Federal Reserve, a government created monopoly, set interest rates artificially low. And the American auto makers are in trouble because they could not compete, but they're being propped up with tax dollars when they should have been allowed to fail. Another company would have bought the assets and made vehicles more efficiently, but corporate socialism has distorted the market.

[PhibbysHammer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PhibbysHammer]

When debating, it's best to keep it simple and stay on point. There are many reasons why socialism doesn't work well, and you can't possibly debate all of them. So try asking your friend some simple questions:

If taxation is so good, why not tax everyone 100 percent? If he says 100 percent taxation is good, ask him how that's any different than slavery. If he says it's not good, ask him what level of taxation IS good. When he gives an answer, ask him how he determined that number. When he pulls an answer out of his ass, ask him why he thinks that percentage is better than an even lower number. Ask him if he's ever considered the possibility that governments get less revenue if they tax beyond a certain level. Challenge your friend's basic assumptions about how the world works.

You could ask him why he thinks giving more power to a few government bureaucrats will result in more efficient use of resources and a better distribution of wealth. Ask him to cite some real-world examples of where this has worked. He will either attempt to change the subject because he has no answer, or he will only provide a bullshit example. Ask him why the Soviet Union and Eastern Block nations had shortages and low standards of living if socialism works so well.

As far as the American banks go, they went bankrupt because government mandated loans that would have never been made in a truly free market, and also because the Federal Reserve, a government created monopoly, set interest rates artificially low. And the American auto makers are in trouble because they could not compete, but they're being propped up with tax dollars when they should have been allowed to fail. Another company would have bought the assets and made vehicles more efficiently, but corporate socialism has distorted the market.

Your name does not fit you at all Dingdong. This is one of the most intelligent answers I've seen as of yet.