Testosterone

[Dangler Senior Administrator☼ Wizard ☼ White Tiger Award 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Dangler]

I'm the true outlier here. Have had three blood work tests and my T levels are over 1200 each time. That being stated. from what I have read I should be a rampaging psycopath or something. I have trouble getting a firm erection and then once it's "ok" hard, doesn't last long. I am in very good physical shape, with a good diet, regular exercise (more intense than most guys I know), long hikes in the woods with my dogs, no drugs or cigarettes and only occasional beer or two. I do have diabetes but it is under control, and though no diabetes is good, mine is around 7.7 which isn't horrible. I started to lose some of my erection capability perhaps three years ago when I was 62.

A1c - at 7.7, is too high, been there done that; aim to control eating to have 7.0, or lower. It may take reduced quantities at each meal.
If you ever test Bg after fasting, you'd love to be at 100 or less. I was at younger ages, but after I hit 60, its higher. Dr can alter meds prescribed to help you control it better.

Its a real challenge. You get older and just don't need the quantity of food you are accustomed to eating.

Sorry, hated to go off topic, but felt it was all worth stating.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

A1c - at 7.7, is too high, been there done that; aim to control eating to have 7.0, or lower. It may take reduced quantities at each meal.
If you ever test Bg after fasting, you'd love to be at 100 or less. I was at younger ages, but after I hit 60, its higher. Dr can alter meds prescribed to help you control it better.

Its a real challenge. You get older and just don't need the quantity of food you are accustomed to eating.

Sorry, hated to go off topic, but felt it was all worth stating.

Actually low test and diabetes seem to have some correlation .

[closed224 Senior Member Member of the Month Dec 2014, Feb 2017 Find all posts View Profile Close closed224]

That's me for sure. Both are very correlated with hormones. Unfortunately the information doesn't seem to help treat either.

[NOWHARD Banned Find all posts View Profile Close NOWHARD]

Hi Guys just found this you may find it interesting and long, its from excelmale.com from Nelson Vergel

Alternatives to testosterone replacement: Clomiphene ( Clomid )

Clomiphene Citrate (CC)


Like HCG, CC was originally designed for female infertility. Approved by the FDA in 1967 it has since become an inexpensive generic drug. It is a selective estrogen receptor modulator comprised of a 38%/62% racemic mixture of cis and trans isomers, zuclomiphene and enclomiphene, respectively.30 It has antagonistic effects on the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and the pituitary thereby increasing endogenous gonadotropin releasing hormones, LH and FSH. It ability to increase LH in men was recognized as early at 1968 31 As with all SERMs organ estrogen agonistic effects are also possible. In a study aimed at using CC challenges to diagnose hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, Paulsen demonstrated significant increases in LH,FSH and T in normal older men taking 50 mgs of CC twice a day.32 Sherins et
al33 were able show the CC was able to block the LH and FSH suppression that occurs with exogenous T and estrogen administration, thus demonstrating that estrogen was the primary inhibitory hormone on GnRH , LH and FSH. Over the ensuing decades, CC was used to increase male fertility with mixed results. Though an increase in T and estrogen level was consistently demonstrated, no consistent effect of seminal parameters or pregnancy rates was observed. A 6 month multicenter international placebo controlled study cast doubts on the efficacy of CC on idiopathic male infertility. It is important to realize that in the international study, the infertile population was eugondal with the mean baseline T levels of 481ng dl-1. Well controlled studies in the hypogonadal infertile male are lacking, despite the high prevalence of secondary hypogonadism in this group of men.

Tenover et al34 looked at an 8 week trial of CC (50mg BID) in 5 healthy older and 5 young eugonadal men (mean age 73 vs 29; mean baseline T 518 vs 498) and demonstrated that older men both increased LH and FSH and T and E-2. Though levels of T were significantly lower in the older group, the levels achieved in both groups were well above levels that are achieved with many current day exogenous treatments. Lim observed normalization of testosterone levels in 5 hypogonadal uremic men with uniform increase in libido, sexual potency, and a general sense of well-being using 100 mg of CC daily for as long as 12 months. The normalization of T continued for 4-5 months after discontinuation of therapy. Plasma estradiol levels were elevated at baseline and did not change significantly from baseline.35

Guay el al36 challenged 21 older men with erectile dysfunction and secondary hypogonadism with 50 mg CC bid for 7 days and normalized their T, demonstrating that at that at least in the short term, the concept of testosterone restoration was possible in older men. He then expanded the concept with an eight week double blind placebo controlled crossover study in older men (mean age 62) with secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction (documented with nocturnal penile tumescence scan (NPT). No improvement was seen in NPT or sexual function questionnaires in the group as a whole. When the study population was split between younger and older groups (mean age 53 and 66respectively) in a post hoc analysis, not surprisingly, the differences between the treatment groups with the sexual function questionnaires and NPT testing achieved statistical significance. The older men were more likely to
have “end organ” disease” refractory to hormonal manipulation. This was the first demonstration that CC could not only normalize T levels in SHGD but result in symptomatic improvement. 37 Guay then began treating men in his practice
with SHGD with CC (50 mg) three times a week. He reported an observational series of 173 men with ED and SHGD treated for 4 months. The diagnosis of ED was based on self-report and not a validated questionnaire and a placebo arm was lacking. The outcome was measured as “responder” to treatment (successful intercourse >75% of the time), partial responder (successful intercourse 50%-75% of the time) and non-responder. As in his previous studies, LH, FSH and free testosterone levels increased. Sexual function improved in 75% and did not change in 25%. Age and vascular co- morbidities negatively affected the response rates. 38

Taylor et al in an observational study compared the biochemical efficacy of CC to exogenous gel treatment (TRT) in 104 men (65 CC vs 39 on TRT). The groups were not strictly identical but demonstrated comparable increases in testosterone with a 182 $ monthly savings in the CC group. PSA levels and HCT did not significantly change in follow up (23 months)39 Moskovic demonstrated an excellent chemical response in a younger cohort of 29 men (mean age 44) followed for three years on CC 25 mgs every other day. In addition, despite an unusually high percentage of men with altered bone mineral density at baseline (75%) BMD normalized at one year in 25%. No improvement in BMD was observed after the first year. Though estradiol increased significantly no gynecomastia or breast tenderness occurred. No side effects were reported.40

The efficacy of CC in relieving the symptoms of hypogonadism is often anecdotally reported as being inferior to exogenous therapy without the support of randomized double blind studies. Katz et al retrospectively looked at symptom relief with CC (25mg every other day) in 86 young (mean age 29) hypogonadal men, most of whom were presenting for infertility (57 %) over a 4 year period at a Sloan Kettering andrology practice. The men were followed for a mean of 19 months. Surprisingly the median number of positive baseline responses on the androgen deficiency in aging males (ADAM) questionnaire was 5 that dropped to 2. These “generally very healthy” young men started at a mean T level of 192 ng dl-1 and increased their T to 485 (despite a target treatment level of 550 ng dl-1). The symptoms that showed significant increases included “decreased libido, lack of energy, decreased life enjoyment, sad/grumpy, decreased sports performance”.41 The lack of a placebo arm weakens the strength of the study. Further support of the efficacy of CC in relieving hypogonadal symptoms comes from a retrospectively gathered observational comparative study from Baylor by Ramasamy. In examining the effect of CC vs replacement therapy on hypogonadal symptoms, nosignificant differences were seen in between T injections, T gels or CC. T levels were highest with injections (1104 ng dl-1) vs CC (504 ng dl-1) or the gels (412 ng dl-1).42 The lack of a difference in symptom relief supports the concept that symptom relief may be tied to a threshold level that is achieved with TRES and TREP. Unfortunately pre-treatment quantitative ADAM scores (QADAM) were not reported and the QADAM has not been fully psychometrically validated.

Recently there has been interest in the trans isomer of CC (EC). Distinct differential pharmacokinetics of the two isomers have been demonstrated.43 Though the Cmax, and Tmax were comparable, the AUC for the isomers was dramatically different after a single dose administration of 50 mgs of CC in women with polycystic ovaries. At 456 hours, ZC was detected in 9/9 patients vs 1/9 for EC.44 The half-life of EC is 7-8 hrs. 45 EC was evaluated in an early proof of concept randomized, open-label, fixed dose, active-control (7EC and 5 exogeous gel), two-center phase IIB study in 12 men with secondary hypogonadism treated previously with topical testosterone. After T discontinuation of exogenous T, T levels in both groups average 165ng dl-1. After treatment T levels increased in both groups to over 540 ng dl-1 but decreased to baseline after cessation of treatment suggesting that the hypothalamic testicular axis reverts to its pretreatment state and continued therapy is necessitated. Whereas sperm counts were increased in all men on EC at 6 months only 2 of 5 of gel patients increased their sperm concentrations to over 20 million per ml. GTP increased only in the EC arm.46 In follow up clinical trials, safety and clinical efficacy were comparable to a gel preparation while preserving sperm counts. Sperm counts were decreased in the men treated with gels. Side effects were comparable to CC. The most significant adverse events were hot flushes (10%), visual disturbances headaches, nausea and vomiting. Aside from the hot flushes, all events occurred in less than 5% of the study population. 47 The ease of use, low side effect profile, therapeutic efficacy and preservation of fertility, make EC if approved an attractive therapeutic alternative to standard TREP.

Source: http://www.asiaandro.com/news/upload....316%20FOF.pdf

NOWHARD

[wellshii Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close wellshii]

Sucks docs dont seem to know or want to help.
TRT should be a last resort before checking everything else. Vitamin d levels, minerals,omegas, heavy toxic metal levels,sleep , etc etc. Then if one wants to start TRT, everything else should be in check .
TRT compared to natural hormones will be dramatic though, as TRT basically shuts down shbg and frees up testosterone(BIO AVAILABLE) which is what makes us feel good,gym hard,aggressive,confident. DHT testosterone
is also converted from total testosterone,which is what makes men hard,want to screw, keeps us lean,
and if one is susceptible to it, male pattern baldness as well as psa levels going up. Although much has been debated on the prostate and DHT as estrogen and lifestyle tend to play a role on prostate as well.
Most docs say normal range is 200-800,which is sad. Plus they arent even trying to see the free test,dht,estrogen,prolactin, shbg, cortisol etc etc.
Total test is not an indicator of low t, as the body can be converting total efficiently into Free unbound Testosterone.

Any doctors on here?

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

I had a free test number and the specialist would not even look at it . Inaccurate to the point of worthless was his words and it seems a common medical view . For that matter they regard total test as a slushy number .

I aree with you about total test number the normal range is set to low on the bottom end . If they don't understand they will not understand all the rest and the interactions.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Am seeing some young guys with middle aged test numbers having middle aged sex issues . You know lowish libido eq issues etc which would be regarded as normal for a middle aged guy but in your 20's should not be.
A level of 400 in your 20's might be regarded as normal and perhaps it is for a 6o y but if you are 20's you should be looking for a higher number.

[NOWHARD Banned Find all posts View Profile Close NOWHARD]

Am seeing some young guys with middle aged test numbers having middle aged sex issues . You know lowish libido eq issues etc which would be regarded as normal for a middle aged guy but in your 20's should not be.
A level of 400 in your 20's might be regarded as normal and perhaps it is for a 6o y but if you are 20's you should be looking for a higher number.

Pegman your find this is all to do with modern lifestyle, to much fast foods and takeaway's, most have very high salt and sugar levels, bang on top of that canned drinks up goes the sugar levels.

Now just think back to your 20's or mid 20's what was you eating, bet it was nothing like it is now, it was healthy eating and lots of good for on the table.

Your find its there blood, full of plaque from high cholesterol salt would also be up along with sugars there are 3 really cheap things of which are probably in your kitchen now that will cure it, 1 is Cayenne Pepper, 2 is Turmeric and 3 is Garlic, just these 3 will get any guys blood working as it should and will bet you there erections come back to full power.

I have an FT guy now going on it as he has blocked veins and cant get an erection, he's just about to go on it as I have a post for the mix, you start on a low heat from the CP and as you go on you up that, I have a base mix, and on to that each day I add a heaped teaspoon of CP each day same for Turmeric and Garlic.

By the way FT I have quite, its got so boring, its all about implants these days and not much else, anyone going on there, there telling them to just go and get an implant, that will all stop soon, The trump will see to that.

NOWHARD

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

While food is a factor and exercise another, there seems to be a wide range of issues that cause low test I believe stress is a major one.

[NOWHARD Banned Find all posts View Profile Close NOWHARD]

Pegman your find this is all to do with modern lifestyle, to much fast foods and takeaway's, most have very high salt and sugar levels, bang on top of that canned drinks up goes the sugar levels.

Now just think back to your 20's or mid 20's what was you eating, bet it was nothing like it is now, it was healthy eating and lots of good for on the table.

Your find its there blood, full of plaque from high cholesterol salt would also be up along with sugars there are 3 really cheap things of which are probably in your kitchen now that will cure it, 1 is Cayenne Pepper, 2 is Turmeric and 3 is Garlic, just these 3 will get any guys blood working as it should and will bet you there erections come back to full power.

I have an FT guy now going on it as he has blocked veins and cant get an erection, he's just about to go on it as I have a post for the mix, you start on a low heat from the CP and as you go on you up that, I have a base mix, and on to that each day I add a heaped teaspoon of CP each day same for Turmeric and Garlic.

By the way FT I have quite, its got so boring, its all about implants these days and not much else, anyone going on there, there telling them to just go and get an implant, that will all stop soon, The trump will see to that.

NOWHARD

I missed an important part in the above and its saturated fat, this gets into the blood stream and gives guys lots of plaque, this leads to guys having high cholesterol, and when found out, put on statins.

Plaque in a great way to ED as it reduces blood flow, now pile on that statins now this really push's up chances of ED by a lot points, as a lot of us know about statins and how bad they are for guys some wont say there on them, so we get a lot of clouded facts when we ask about meds, and if there on statins you can bet your life there on HBP meds as well, so up goes the chances of ED now by loads more points.

My mix which is out on site will get all this down, will clear out plaque, get your blood flowing with a zing unclog any veins, bring there HBP down, meaning they can come of the statins and HBP meds, erection city here they come.

My mix taken first thing every morning and then go for a walk, you can fill it going round your body as you walk, that is how good it is, for those who want to see my mix, its below.

One last thing guys with venous leaks this can also be put down to plaque, but you do need to read up on that one, but its there.


OK welcome to my mix.

The way out and clearing away plaque would be to get on Cayenne Pepper, Turmeric with black pepper and garlic, take this each morning and see how you go.

For each heaped teaspoon of turmeric you add a ¼ teaspoon of ground black pepper, this helps the turmeric to get absorbed into your system better.

The whole mix its all very healthy for you.

You just mix CP and Turmeric and BP 50/50 in olive oil and then mix with tomato paste and thin it with olive oil, at first you just mix this to a heat ( this the heat that CP gives off) that suits you, and over time you can slowly increase the CP and Turmeric.

You take 3 teaspoonful’s each morning first thing, you wash each spoonful down with water, before anything else just after you get up, one thing it will warm you up with this mix, which will also help would be very fine chopped garlic, just do a whole head, chopped fine, and keep in olive oil, with this you add dried parsley, a couple of good desert spoonful’s and mix, you just add a teaspoonful on top of the CP an turmeric mix, just mix into the top take as said.

The Parsley its very good for the blood and helps keep your Cholesterol down.

Please do keep both jars in the fridge, keeps a lot better that way.

Now if you google and read up about all three, there very good for ED, your cholesterol, heart and it clears blocked arteries and veins, good at lowering HBP, prostate, prostitutes, clearing plague of a venous leak, gout and RA, garlic is also very good for your blood, so along with the CP and turmeric with BP, your be doing your body the world of good.
Turmeric is a great way of fighting and lowering your triglyceride numbers when you have high cholesterol, and turmeric is also a way of fighting certain cancers.
There are many sites covering the health benefits of turmeric, some are packed with lots of very interesting info and due to advertising restrictions cant be shown here

At first you really need to be taken this 3 times a day the other 2 times just before meals, for 2 weeks, then just twice a day for 2 weeks then just the once at first thing in the mornings, great way to start the day.

And yes have had ED now in recovery and do take what is above daily along with other supplements and a hormone.
Good blood flow is necessary for harder erections and a healthy body.
Cayenne Pepper, Turmeric with BP and Garlic, is the way to help good blood flow for erections and lots of other ailment’s.

So do hope this helps you.

Good Luck

NOWHARD

PS This really needs a 12 week trail, to see if its going to work for you, if its for RA do increase it up, the stronger it is the better it works for you.

Don’t forget to up the amount of CP and turmeric as you go on.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Ok so it seems that for some at least there are problems below circa 5oo with lower libido ,eq issues . I seems above 1000 can be a negative also .

So here is a question within that range 500 to 1000 is there any change in libido etc or is it just you exceed the threshold and everything after this is much the same ?

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Ok so it seems that for some at least there are problems below circa 5oo with lower libido ,eq issues . I seems above 1000 can be a negative also .

So here is a question within that range 500 to 1000 is there any change in libido etc or is it just you exceed the threshold and everything after this is much the same ?

Never really got an answer to the above .
It continues to come up that guys with "normal " levels are getting middle aged penis issues if they are under 500 though some seem to function ok with a little less . In general if you are a young guy with a so called normal test level that is 300 or 400 you can expect middle aged dick performance .

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

My brother in law is an ameuter athlete, tri athlete. He suspects some of his team mates are doping with TRT since it doesn't show up on blood work as abnormal. I guess it's the new thing in professional sports as well. If you have ever sat close to the field at a baseball game the players are huge. I guess a lot of police men are using it unnecessarily as well to give them an edge over the bad guys. I guess I can understand them or a fire fighter using it to help protect themselves and others, or if they have families. But TRT by athletes, especially ameuter athletes Is ridiculous.

Yep

[theGOAT Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close theGOAT]

I am too lazy to read everything, but Low Vit D can cause low testosterone, and many people have Vit D deficiency.Get your Vit D!

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Lots of different causes many of which can be dealt with by natural methods.