"Argument with loved ones, limited critical thinking"

[TheZZWoman Senior Member Member of the Month Jan 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close TheZZWoman]

@TheZZWoman

Sorry honey, your information isn't correct. We are not even omnivorous. Straight up herbivores.

We have carbohydrate digesting enzymes in our mouths, a feature carnivores and omnivores do not have. This feature is observed throughout pretty much all Herbivores.

Humans livers cannot detoxify vitamin A, a feature that is observed in all herbivores as well. Omnivores and carnivores do have livers to detoxify vitamin A.

The PH in our stomachs are 4-5, similar to herbivores as well, 4-5. Carnivores and omnivores have a ph of less than 1, really fucking acidic. Makes sense because of the dense tissues.

Our small intestines are 10-12 times the length of our own bodies similar to herbivores. Carnivores and omnivores are about 3-6 times their length.

When we eat animal products, they sit in our colon and ferment and release a gas called hydrogen sulfide (H2S) for my chemistry folks, and it basically shreds our DNA further promoting oxidative stress. Rapidly increasing the rate at which our telomeres shorten. Find out why telomeres are important for out health. You'll be astounded.

Like, I have so much more. I can literally type here for fucking hours. You see all this evidence, and yet people still are not convinced. You have to at some point relinquish yourself of all this programming society has etched into your mind. It's really ridiculous and, yah. I am already falling back in the trap of all this again. But it's ok to be wrong. Like I said, correct your actions once you have the knowledge and become a better person for it.

To just dismiss it and keep going on doing what you're doing because you think you're right, it is really childish. That's what humans will really always be. Just for a few, they will truly understand their core behaviors and correct them for the best. If you read my post, I used to be fully keto carnivore. It took me about a week to fully put my ego to the side, and just say, "Yah, I'm wrong. This is better in all aspects and I want to be better from here on out."

I really want to entertain this discussion more, but to say we have anatomy of an omnivore, that's wrong. Science provides the evidence to conclude this is wrong. A fact is a fact is a fact is a fact is a fact!

And if you deny that then...... Well, there are many words to describe. Not to be pretentious.

I want what is best for this world, but when it comes down to it, we humans make decisions and they do have the most impact in this world due to us being a needy species. We can't reach some sort of equilibrium with this planet like most species. We have to heavily augment nature to suit our needs because we can't properly adapt with nature. Cutting down on the amount of resources you use is really an admirable thing, and one really big thing that you can do is just change your diet. It's really not all that hard.

All right, well I'm done. I have shitloads of homework to do. I may revisit this thread tomorrow. Take care.

Yes, physiologically we have the characteristics of herbivores but these classifications are given on behavior not physical attributes. So we are omnivores because we act like omnivores and been doing so for many centuries, it's called adaptation. We may not have claws but we do have guns, we may not have large mouths but we do have knives. This does not make us stupid, it makes us creative and intelligent. You will argue health risks and I will argue balanced diet and for as many vegans you find in perfect health, I can find just as many meat eaters the same. So again, congratulations on your life style choice but stop criticizing me for mine.

[GoodLookingNerd Member Find all posts View Profile Close GoodLookingNerd]

Yes, physiologically we have the characteristics of herbivores but these classifications are given on behavior not physical attributes. So we are omnivores because we act like omnivores and been doing so for many centuries, it's called adaptation. We may not have claws but we do have guns, we may not have large mouths but we do have knives. This does not make us stupid, it makes us creative and intelligent. You will argue health risks and I will argue balanced diet and for as many vegans you find in perfect health, I can find just as many meat eaters the same. So again, congratulations on your life style choice but stop criticizing me for mine.

I am not going to respond anymore to your comments. I am not being an elitist as well. You are simply relying on anecdotes, and I actually fully read your last post as well.

*Shaking my head*

My whole response was only based on you claiming that the human anatomy is built to ingest animal products. But yeah, it's just going to be futile.

Keep doing your thing. Society will hopefully realize that this needs to be the standard for the longevity for our planet and actually makes the change.

What it all boils down to, there are two choices. One is better for you and everything around you and doesn't even take the most effort, and the other is just what you have been doing and is really caustic on resources, horrible for your health, and causes the suffering and death of sentient beings.

And to rely on anecdotes...... Man.....

I am learning more everyday. Only a handful of people will truly ever get it.

And I am not talking about veganism. Just, if you understand, you would get it.

Take care.

[TheZZMan Moderator Member of the Month Sept 2018PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close TheZZMan]

I feel sorry for your mom in all this. We get a taste, she gets it everyday.

So, what book, research, study etc. has brought you to your conclusion? I have no issues if you want to nibble on banana leaves or some other foliage. Why the militant dislike for the way others eat, to what gain do you get from telling us we are wrong?

[GoodLookingNerd Member Find all posts View Profile Close GoodLookingNerd]

I feel sorry for your mom in all this. We get a taste, she gets it everyday.

So, what book, research, study etc. has brought you to your conclusion? I have no issues if you want to nibble on banana leaves or some other foliage. Why the militant dislike for the way others eat, to what gain do you get from telling us we are wrong?

Yup, I start the day with some tree bark and dirt smoothie. I eat banana leaves orange peels the rest of the day.

I am cutting right now to get down to 10% bodyfat, and am eating 1850 calories with over 150 grams of protein, rich in nutrients and antioxidants. And, I only spend 25 mins. in the morning preparing it all for the day and the next. Cheap and delicious. Once I get down to 10%, gonna lean bulk with 2750 calories and get over 270 grams of protein and even more nutrients.

I wish I could show you folks on my food logs on Cronometer. You literally cannot match the same calories with all the nutrients and antioxidants with a standard diet.

You have a search engine man. The amount of time you spend here on the forums, do some research if you actually give a fuck. Right now, based on how you typed your comment out I can kind of see how the conversation will pan out. It will all go down the path of futility.

This is obviously a flaw with digital conversation. I don't know if you're actually curious or you are setting the stage for another outcome. I will assume the latter because that's usually how these things pan out. Again, all I want is what's best for this world. But I can just see the immaturity and ego that goes into these things. I love my family, but they'll do their thang and it sucks but I'll just keep studying.

I'm done with this thread. You take care as well. I am not irritated. Just don't want to associate with individuals who are so close minded.

[TheZZMan Moderator Member of the Month Sept 2018PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close TheZZMan]

Interesting, I see the closed minded one as you....

You are young and setting your way in life. Part of life is understanding that others differ in their opinions. Nothing wrong with that and diversity of opinion is both welcomed and encouraged. Much like political conversations there are two distinct sides, each with their beliefs and each with their own set of morals. What you choose to eat is a personal choice. Telling others what to eat is not. We choose our own lifestyles and respect needs to be given to both sides of the equation. You believe plant based is better - I applaud your decision. I choose something more diverse that I don't feel harms me, but I also partake in your plant based diet at most every meal. We both eat, but we also choose what we eat. Having disdain for what I consume has no effect on what you consume. So why argue a point that has no win for either side, and only will bring hard feelings between otherwise good people.

[burtybasset Retired Moderator Member of the Month May 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close burtybasset]

Make sure you supplement your diet with B12 if you don't eat any meat or milk/eggs. Excessive homocysteine in your body leads to heart attacks and strokes so I'm told. Vegetarians and to a greater extent vegans are more prone to it and cannot get B12 in their diet to deal with it without supplementation so my vegan sister tells me.

I don't think its a coincidence humans have their eyes on the front of their head like most predators. Also our nearest relative the chimp eats meat whenever they can, but they are nowhere near as successful at hunting as humans.

I'm also pretty sure every tribe you can find will have some evidence of hunting for meat, so I would say yeah, we are evolved to eat veggies, but we are also evolved to eat meat hence canine teeth etc.

I do wonder how many species we have wiped out because we have eaten them all?

[the_iron Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close the_iron]

The_Iron: "So when they ask, "you don't eat meat?"
I answer, "I don't enjoy being stupid." All with a straight face and disinterested attitude. This normally causes them to laugh.

They ask, "so meat makes people stupid?"
I answer while continuing to do my stuff, "Yeah. Plus you are always tired all the time and you need to sleep like a snake after eating a goat etc... plus my job requires a lot of maths and when I do meat I can't think. But you don't worry, you can be stupid and it won't matter much. It is not like you need extra brains for anything like maths or thinking..." To this they almost always conclude, "I am eating like you today."

Sorry, you are illogical. Meat does not prevent you from being smart. Humans are carnivorous by their make-up and meat was a vital part in keeping us healthy. Thanks to scientific break throughs, we no longer depend on meat to get the vital nutrients found there. There are now substitutes for the proteins found in meat and humans have now found ways to combat other problems people in the past have encountered from lack of meat in their diet. So it is now completely safe to be vegan if that is how you choose to live your life. You just keep finding people that are not very smart to try your con game so that they can boost your ego.

I come from a family of "maths" as you put it who all joyfully consider themselves meat and potato eaters, we were raised that way. Father 89 yrs old - Electrical engineer only eats meat and potatoes with lots of gravy, very few vegetables. Still quick as a whip and doesn't need a calculator to solve any problem. Oldest Brother 64 yrs. old - Electrical engineer same diet as father. Middle Brother - Electrical engineer - has a very balanced diet due to a liver imbalance but still enjoys meat. Youngest Brother - Nuclear engineer - same diet as father with exception of loving fried food, will fry up anything and eat it. All 4 are extremely intelligent and they are highly admired in their careers. I just wish elitists like you wouldn't keep trying to push your ideas on other people. If it is right for you, then by all means live your life that way but stop looking down your nose at us meat eaters and claiming that your smarter than us.

By the way - I am a meat eater and a mathy - I chose to teach our future engineers instead of becoming one and my oldest sister is vegan - the most unhealthy of the bunch. Just spoke with her the other day about all her aches and pains. So sorry, your logic falls short! If meat is making you stupid, you may want to try eating it instead of hitting yourself over the head with it.

Hey don't get defensive. I was giving the OP advice on how to deal with meat eaters who question his diet - not trying to convince anyone here to be vegan. I am not a military vegan - and this is because I have been on both sides of the equation. When I was a meat eater, I literally did not like vegans and their attitude. When I turned vegan, and this was through a 30 day trial, I quickly remembered my distaste for vegans when I was a meat eater and decided not to try to convince anyone to my diet.

So those that ask me get the answer that I stated. And why? Because it cuts through logic i.e it matches the illogical answers that are easy to swallow. Now if you want me to provide you with logical reasons to be vegan, then I am not willing to engage in such a conversation - it absolutely achieves no good.

Personally the greatest changes that I have made in my life are:
1. being a businessman and an employer from age 19
2. being vegan
3. quitting porn
On a personal level the three changes are so big in my life that I promptly will give up everything else to retain them.
Does this mean that it is the best option for others? No. When I have kids and a wife, I would NOT insist on the kids to be vegan or on wife to quit her job and be self employed etc. I have learnt to let everyone live their lives the way they want without getting into an argument. So she can eat her animals, as long as she makes me fresh vegetables and legumes etc and buys and stocks lots of fruits. The kids can eat whatever they want without the slightest cringe from their father.

So I never make it my effort to convince anyone of my diet choice - I tried both and super loved the vegan one and stuck with it happily their after. It is personal.

[TheZZWoman Senior Member Member of the Month Jan 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close TheZZWoman]

Hey don't get defensive. I was giving the OP advice on how to deal with meat eaters who question his diet - not trying to convince anyone here to be vegan. I am not a military vegan - and this is because I have been on both sides of the equation. When I was a meat eater, I literally did not like vegans and their attitude. When I turned vegan, and this was through a 30 day trial, I quickly remembered my distaste for vegans when I was a meat eater and decided not to try to convince anyone to my diet.

So those that ask me get the answer that I stated. And why? Because it cuts through logic i.e it matches the illogical answers that are easy to swallow. Now if you want me to provide you with logical reasons to be vegan, then I am not willing to engage in such a conversation - it absolutely achieves no good.

Personally the greatest changes that I have made in my life are:
1. being a businessman and an employer from age 19
2. being vegan
3. quitting porn
On a personal level the three changes are so big in my life that I promptly will give up everything else to retain them.
Does this mean that it is the best option for others? No. When I have kids and a wife, I would NOT insist on the kids to be vegan or on wife to quit her job and be self employed etc. I have learnt to let everyone live their lives the way they want without getting into an argument. So she can eat her animals, as long as she makes me fresh vegetables and legumes etc and buys and stocks lots of fruits. The kids can eat whatever they want without the slightest cringe from their father.

So I never make it my effort to convince anyone of my diet choice - I tried both and super loved the vegan one and stuck with it happily their after. It is personal.

I was not defensive about you being a vegan, it is that you tell people that if you are not, then you are stupid. I have huge issues with this. We can agree to disagree about diet choices but don't call me stupid because I don't agree with you. And even though you say that you would not insist on your wife and kids being vegan, you still have this attitude that you are therefore smarter than them because you are - and why does she have to make the fresh vegetables and legumes - Why can't you make dinner making sure they have meat with their meal that go with your fresh vegetables and legumes? Just sayin'!

[TheZZMan Moderator Member of the Month Sept 2018PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close TheZZMan]

Did someone say Gluten Free Tofu Veggie Burger?

Just kidding, hey folks, eat what ever you like. Just have respect for those who eat differently. Pretty simple if you ask me. Neither is right or wrong. Preaching your side only causes others to not want to try your lifestyle. I am open to anything and constantly looking for healthy new dishes to serve the family. I always take a stab at vegan, but the lack of butter always throws me. I'll keep trying.

[the_iron Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close the_iron]

I was not defensive about you being a vegan, it is that you tell people that if you are not, then you are stupid. I have huge issues with this. We can agree to disagree about diet choices but don't call me stupid because I don't agree with you. And even though you say that you would not insist on your wife and kids being vegan, you still have this attitude that you are therefore smarter than them because you are - and why does she have to make the fresh vegetables and legumes - Why can't you make dinner making sure they have meat with their meal that go with your fresh vegetables and legumes? Just sayin'!

Ok Mrs TheZZWoman, I wont call you stupid.

[TheGreatDivider Senior Member Member of the Month Dec 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close TheGreatDivider]

Who's the parent in this relationship? From where I see it you're attempting to take over your mother's job as a parent to you and your siblings just because you don't agree with her dietary practices. Guess what, you're not in charge of how other people live their lives. You can make suggestions and try pitch the idea for her to buy cheaper more nutritionally dense foods, but outright telling her how to feed HER children is authoritarian. Especially if you are living in her house, going to college, and not working. You keep that up and you may need to start looking for another place to stay very soon.

I'm not going to get into the vegan argument, because a lot of what I am seeing is just rhetoric I've seen before. There's quite a few things wrong with the statements you've made, but I'm not going to get into a pointless debate over this... You want to be a vegan? You do you, boo.
BTW, I'm a food science major (formerly electrical engineering major and ET in the Navy) and omnivore weight lifter, in my third year of college. I agree with what you are trying to do just not the way in which you are going about it.

More importantly, I want to take a minute to talk about the attitude here from a managerial perspective. I've had a lot of training in the corporate word when I studied IT (that's right my educational history is all over the place) and had lots of CEOs, CIOs, and CFOs from different companies tell me what they are looking for. Suffice to say it's not just your education, certificates, or experience that matters but whether or not you can get along with others that matters. Managers do not want to hire someone who will buck the system and piss off other co-workers. The one thing managers hate, absolutely HATE having entry level employees tell them how to do their job because they don't like the way they are managing the company and think they could do better. No, trust me on this. You start telling your boss how to do his job better and you will be out of a job before you know it. It's seen as disrespectful even if you had the best of intentions.

You see where I am going with this? Imagine how it would feel to run your own company for close to twenty years by yourself only to have one of your employees come along and tell you what to do. It would be a bit like telling your mom how to parent her other children because you think you know better. I have to keep harping on this but until you have a child of your own you can't possibly know how it feels to be a parent. So give your mother some respect and let her run her family. When you have children you can decide what your family will eat for dinner every night.