The Decline in the US Standard of Living over the Past 40 Years

[Pirate Retired AdministratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Pirate]

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[stilltoosmall Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close stilltoosmall]

Thats capitalism for you, dont like it go live in china im sure they have it better.

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Lu Ting, a Hong Kong-based economist for Bank of America, said in an e-mail that he sees wage growth of 11 percent this year after an estimated 10.7 percent gain in 2013. JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Mizuho Securities Asia Ltd. analysts said in interviews that they predict 10 percent to 15 percent increases.

In minimum-wage increases so far announced for 2014, workers in Shenzhen in Guangdong province get a 13 percent boost and the gain for those in Yangzhou, Jiangsu province, is 15.6 percent.

China Wages Seen Jumping in 2014 Amid Shift to Services - Bloomberg

China has kept its export machine running even while wages rise. Blue-collar pay has soared between fivefold and ninefold in dollar terms in the last decade, wrecking China’s reputation as a low-wage place for export-oriented manufacturing. Rocketing wages and benefits reflect an acute shortage of manufacturing labor, as a younger generation goes to college instead of heading for factories and as rural China has mostly run out of young adults to send to the cities.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/10/bu...osts.html?_r=0

Have it better? No. Better off now than 4 years ago?

http://youtu.be/8EvFQLhqWPQ

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Nothing like blue collar economists arguing the irrelevant.

LOL. But the pros have done a horrible (nearly criminally insane) job of it; why not let others give it a shot!

[RoyCropper Banned Find all posts View Profile Close RoyCropper]

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China Wages Seen Jumping in 2014 Amid Shift to Services - Bloomberg



http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/10/bu...osts.html?_r=0

Have it better? No. Better off now than 4 years ago?

http://youtu.be/8EvFQLhqWPQ

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LOL. But the pros have done a horrible (nearly criminally insane) job of it; why not let others give it a shot!

yeah the sweatshop workers will really appreciate the pay rise.

[OneEyedWilly Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close OneEyedWilly]

Nothing like blue collar economists arguing the irrelevant.

....and instead of thinking and giving an opinion, it's far easier to throw out insults on the internet.

[stilltoosmall Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close stilltoosmall]

All the talk about GDP, quality and availability of housing and health care, class disparity, political and religious freedom, life expectancy, infrastructure, etc. all play a role in standard of living to be sure. However, and I'm not saying I have it as hard as many other people in the world, but Disposable Income has to fit in here somewhere! I can only speak from personal experience, but as time goes by my wife and I each have to do more work in the same amount of time with fewer people than in years past. Raises don't come as quickly as 20 or 30 years ago either. Federal taxes may be lower today, but taxes for state and local services are much higher as are insurance premiums. Sure, our standard of living may be decent, but our ability to purchase is less now than it was 35 years ago too.

This is exactly what I am speaking about. As for Federal taxes, if you expect Social Security or Medicare, those are pre-pay. If you expect those programs to be radically altered as the government goes into a terminal fiscal crisis; that money will never been seen again.

[namsokiek Banned Find all posts View Profile Close namsokiek]

This is exactly what I am speaking about. As for Federal taxes, if you expect Social Security or Medicare, those are pre-pay. If you expect those programs to be radically altered as the government goes into a terminal fiscal crisis; that money will never been seen again.

Again, lmfao that the healthcare program and the pension program, the things you value most in this thread, are the very things that are causing the terminal fiscal crisis. Those two programs are the largest part of the entitlement section of the national budget, of which the entitlement section of the budget is 66.7% of the $3.710 trillion dollar budget.

The object of your desire is also the cause of the federal fiscal crisis. You can't have them without their financial consequence. That is why companies got away from pensions. However, that doesn't explain why employees abandoned pensions. I'll refer you to Childs, P. D., Fore, D.,Ott, S. H., & Lilly, C. C. (2012). Definedbenefit vs. defined contribution: Optimal employee and employer retirement panchoice. Lexington, KY: n.p. a working paper on the subject.

They found that employees prefer defined contribution over defined benefit (pension) because DC afforded greater flexibility to allow one to move from employer to employer and was recognized as income, whereas DB required employees to stay at the same company for decades. The upward mobility in pay and benefits was much higher than staying at the same job waiting for someone senior to you to retire or die. Employees valued this flexibility 11.1%. To add numeracy, if a job had DB employees would require a salary of 100, if the job offered DC the employees would require a salary of 88.9.


This suggests a strong employee preference to employment flexibility and self-management of retirement funds over job security from a single employer and a equally funded pension. Don't blame the company or the country because American's (in general) are short-sighted enough to prefer a DC system but bad at preparing for retirement.

[Wildcatter Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Wildcatter]

No offense, Namso but I'm guessing you're either an engineer or work in software, etc. Because your basis on determinants of the fiscal crisis are basically 1/10 of the problem, at least as far as middle-class families are concerned.

I get it, you don't like entitlement programs. Neither do I. I think we can both agree the funds need to be better distributed. However, that's only part of the issue if you look at hard numbers, data, and economic history. It's easy to assume America's problem is "personal spending", because it means you don't have to actually address any issues, which is why we'll always have two dillholes running for president instead of people not full of complete crap.

The real entitlement problem comes from CEO's, legislation, and pure monopoly power given to businesses who's only concern is the bottom line. They're "entitled" to maximize profits at all expense, even if it means letting half their workforce go once a job is completed. Wages stay the same, inflation increases, GDP rises, the executive board gets a 6 figure bonus, while your buddy gets laid off because he just shipped his job offshore.

Companies get tax breaks for shipping jobs offshore. In fact there are 26 multi billion dollar companies that pay no federal income tax. And a number of them pay much, much lower tax rates than a guy supporting a family and making 60k a year. That's absurd.

I grew up in a small town, worked my ass off to get everything I have, and you know what I noticed over the years? Mom and pop stores are gone, small business owners have caved. Obviously their business model wasn't very efficient, but 50 years ago these people would have their own house in the suburbs. Now the competition from profit motivated "entities", since corporations are legally people which is fucked up and just spur bad intentions, has shut down basically any business that isn't in some niche or in contracting locally.

Both my parent's are self-employed and I've heard it time and time again, money isn't what it used to be, and they have to save much more now than they ever did. These are two people that grew up on farms and never had a dime, bought POS cars and worked jobs in college just like you and I, they've never used entitlement programs, and they aren't afraid to tell you point blank that if you're making under 6 figures in a household these days you're going to be struggling.

Prices are going up, wages are stagnating, employment out of college is decreasing, large conglomerates are paying less and less taxes, jobs are getting moved offshore because our legislation encourages it, we spend trillions on wars the american public doesn't agree with because of a backroom handshake between our head "representatives" and private contractors, oil prices increasing while wages stay the same (because oil prices will never decrease, trust me), energy production increasing yearly because of monopolies by energy providers, all these things effect the common man trying to put food on the table.

The whole problem could be greatly alleviated if the majority of the Fortune 500 companies paid their damn taxes like the common man, some of those taxes could go to the guy busting his ass 60 hours a week, not getting overtime because he's on "salary", while still only pulling in 50k a year and trying to feed a kid. I'm of the opinion if you put in an honest 40 hours a week, you should get an honest living.

I got one of the top degrees in America in the biggest industry in the world, and I did it with no help, and it was a struggle. But that doesn't prevent me from seeing things around me and using due diligence to get to the core of the problem around us. I believe in honest pay for honest work. And I do believe in a fair shake. Maybe I'm just a southern gentleman. I should run for Congress.

[MrPriapus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MrPriapus]

....and instead of thinking and giving an opinion, it's far easier to throw out insults on the internet.

If I thought the level of discussion was high enough to warrant my time I would. The ideas given thus far are things you argue with your friends about after a round of drinks. No one has really thought anything through. I just see tons of links all over the place, saying look what this guy said, he agrees with me, and he has an article published online, so of course, I must be right. You might as well say, "Thank you media for doing my thinking for me because I lack the ability to think critically and independently."

Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Source of Information: http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/fi...eport-en-1.pdf
Americans complain too much, and according to this, we seem to be doing pretty good... But, of course Americans are sensitive, and have to find a reason to complain about everything. Time could be better spent actually reading about economics so that a semi-coherent argument could be constructed.

Start here:
Basic Economics ~ Thomas Sowell
Naked Economics ~ Charles Wheelan

These books explains basic macroeconomic principles to the American layman. They should be required reading for every American IMO.

[RoyCropper Banned Find all posts View Profile Close RoyCropper]

If I thought the level of discussion was high enough to warrant my time I would. The ideas given thus far are things you argue with your friends about after a round of drinks. No one has really thought anything through. I just see tons of links all over the place, saying look what this guy said, he agrees with me, and he has an article published online, so of course, I must be right. You might as well say, "Thank you media for doing my thinking for me because I lack the ability to think critically and independently."

Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Source of Information: http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/fi...eport-en-1.pdf
Americans complain too much, and according to this, we seem to be doing pretty good... But, of course Americans are sensitive, and have to find a reason to complain about everything. Time could be better spent actually reading about economics so that a semi-coherent argument could be constructed.

Start here:
Basic Economics ~ Thomas Sowell
Naked Economics ~ Charles Wheelan

These books explains basic macroeconomic principles to the American layman. They should be required reading for every American IMO.

what level of discussion did you expect on a website about nobs?

[MrPriapus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MrPriapus]

No offense, Namso but I'm guessing you're either an engineer or work in software, etc. Because your basis on determinants of the fiscal crisis are basically 1/10 of the problem, at least as far as middle-class families are concerned.

I get it, you don't like entitlement programs. Neither do I. I think we can both agree the funds need to be better distributed. However, that's only part of the issue if you look at hard numbers, data, and economic history. It's easy to assume America's problem is "personal spending", because it means you don't have to actually address any issues, which is why we'll always have two dillholes running for president instead of people not full of complete crap.

The real entitlement problem comes from CEO's, legislation, and pure monopoly power given to businesses who's only concern is the bottom line. They're "entitled" to maximize profits at all expense, even if it means letting half their workforce go once a job is completed. Wages stay the same, inflation increases, GDP rises, the executive board gets a 6 figure bonus, while your buddy gets laid off because he just shipped his job offshore.

Companies get tax breaks for shipping jobs offshore. In fact there are 26 multi billion dollar companies that pay no federal income tax. And a number of them pay much, much lower tax rates than a guy supporting a family and making 60k a year. That's absurd.

I grew up in a small town, worked my ass off to get everything I have, and you know what I noticed over the years? Mom and pop stores are gone, small business owners have caved. Obviously their business model wasn't very efficient, but 50 years ago these people would have their own house in the suburbs. Now the competition from profit motivated "entities", since corporations are legally people which is fucked up and just spur bad intentions, has shut down basically any business that isn't in some niche or in contracting locally.

Both my parent's are self-employed and I've heard it time and time again, money isn't what it used to be, and they have to save much more now than they ever did. These are two people that grew up on farms and never had a dime, bought POS cars and worked jobs in college just like you and I, they've never used entitlement programs, and they aren't afraid to tell you point blank that if you're making under 6 figures in a household these days you're going to be struggling.

Prices are going up, wages are stagnating, employment out of college is decreasing, large conglomerates are paying less and less taxes, jobs are getting moved offshore because our legislation encourages it, we spend trillions on wars the american public doesn't agree with because of a backroom handshake between our head "representatives" and private contractors, oil prices increasing while wages stay the same (because oil prices will never decrease, trust me), energy production increasing yearly because of monopolies by energy providers, all these things effect the common man trying to put food on the table.

The whole problem could be greatly alleviated if the majority of the Fortune 500 companies paid their damn taxes like the common man, some of those taxes could go to the guy busting his ass 60 hours a week, not getting overtime because he's on "salary", while still only pulling in 50k a year and trying to feed a kid. I'm of the opinion if you put in an honest 40 hours a week, you should get an honest living.

I got one of the top degrees in America in the biggest industry in the world, and I did it with no help, and it was a struggle. But that doesn't prevent me from seeing things around me and using due diligence to get to the core of the problem around us. I believe in honest pay for honest work. And I do believe in a fair shake. Maybe I'm just a southern gentleman. I should run for Congress.

Sounds like you have a complaint with capitalism, not politics.

[MrPriapus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MrPriapus]

what level of discussion did you expect on a website about nobs?

No discussion at all actually.

Great places for this debate:
Economist *Highly recommended. Folks there will show you which way is up for sure.
NYTimes
Politico

[OneEyedWilly Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close OneEyedWilly]

If I thought the level of discussion was high enough to warrant my time I would.

OK then, I'll stand by my original statement about how easy it is to throw out insults on the 'net...and just leave it at that.

[MrPriapus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MrPriapus]

OK then, I'll stand by my original statement about how easy it is to throw out insults on the 'net...and just leave it at that.

[RoyCropper Banned Find all posts View Profile Close RoyCropper]

Let's all agree that yolo

[namsokiek Banned Find all posts View Profile Close namsokiek]

No offense, Namso but I'm guessing you're either an engineer or work in software, etc. Because your basis on determinants of the fiscal crisis are basically 1/10 of the problem, at least as far as middle-class families are concerned.

Close, but I also have an MBA in financial management (government). The professor for the class that discussed the government budget process (income, allocation, submittal, approval) was the former comptroller for the DoD. No offense, but his class was much more representative of the government process than your novella above. To cut to the chase, the numbers do not lie. 2/3 of the budget goes to pay "Must-fund" items. Soon it will be 3/4.

"Middle-class" families (and everyone else, for that matter) show their priorities by their spending. End of story.

Do people prefer to invest $100/month in a 529 for education for each child or do they prefer to buy a smart phone and unlimited data plan for the child? Let's look. Oooh, lots of kids have phones but hardly anyone has a 529? Verdict, they prefer a phone w/ a plan.

Do people prefer to lease/buy a new vehicle every couple years or do they prefer to fully fund their IRAs and 401Ks? Oh look, people are changing cars every 3-5 yrs but no one has a retirement plan that will sustain their standard of living. Verdict, people prefer new wheels.

Why does the US consume the most resources per capita than any other nation? Because we buy stuff. An American doesn't require more food or more shelter than people in other countries, but our spending pattern far exceeds our basic requirements.

IT IS ALL ABOUT PERSONAL SPENDING. If one's personal spending habits make one dependent upon the government for the basic needs, then a complete stranger will be making decisions critical to one's standard of living without any input from the individuals affected. If that is an untenable position, one needs to change one's position. The whole argument is a comp-out of personal responsibility over one's affairs.

On your other points:
Your complaint about corporate taxes should be aimed at your state Reps and Senators.

Your complaint about moms and pops going out of business should be aimed at their former patrons (if you aren't going to aim it at the business). Those cheap bastards that want to spend $20 on a pair of jeans at walmart instead of $30 at the mom and pop.

Your complaint about oil prices should be aimed at China for growing and consuming oil over the last couple decades and driving the demand up.

You want to complain about corporate compensation, you should focus your complaint to Bill Clinton and his initiative to limit corporate compensation. His bill opened the door for stock compensation and it is the foundation of the mess we're in today. I challenge you to analyze the growth of the stock market and corporate income over the last 50 years and mark the date when Clinton's bill became a law.

A last note on the purpose of a company: A company's ultimate goal is to make a profit. All other goals are secondary because if the company fails to make a profit they soon fail to exist. And not existing makes it impossible for any company to accomplish any other goal.

Companies to not exist to provide jobs, healthcare, or retirement pensions. They exist to make a profit.