Western values

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

I know, but my point still stands. What are these Western values you identify, who possesses them, and how do they differ from non-Western values?

Uh huh.
These are some of the questions I ask in post one , would you like to add to the process?

[kickinthemebs Senior Member Member of the Month Feb 2014 Find all posts View Profile Close kickinthemebs]

As I mentioned, it is extremely difficult to identify and split up what exactly is Western. How do we establish it and differentiate it? Is it compared to Eastern? In that case, there a whole host of problems in terms of countries that would typically have Western values but are geographically located in the East and vice versa. If we take it as simply a descriptive notion, but not being defined by geographical boundaries or regions, then we can associate its opposite as non-Western. Again, however, it is quite difficult to come to terms with what we mean by these notions.

Some typical ideals and belief systems associated with Western values would be: Freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of information, freedom of association, democracy, individuality, secularism, prosperity, and so on. There are also other things that one might also link to Westernisation in pejorative terms, such as unrestrained capitalism, exploitation of poorer nations, an over-abundance of consumerism, an un-Godliness, hedonism, self-centredness (individualism), and so on.

However, as you can see from the list of generalised terms, if you take any individual country that purports to be Western, there are contradictions galore within these values. The values are not absolute therefore, they are simply used as reference-points for what Western values are. But because there are not perfect States that demonstrate these values, or even close to them, in brings up the question of whether or not Western States are in fact real or if it is just in ideology/theory.

Uh huh.
These are some of the questions I ask in post one , would you like to add to the process?

[Marlon LGHanger Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Marlon LGHanger]

Well, based on the fact that a group can start protesting for rights to marry a goat, and a judicial system that allow those changes for the whole society, is a sign in my opinion that the western values are in decadence. We can talk and argue about evolving or changing with times, being "modern", but in fact we are degenerating society.

Western values are broadly generalized as Judeo / Christian values. It's the Puritan work ethic that made the United States the most prosperous, inventive country in world history. Capitalism is in fact the driving engine of success in a country that promotes freedom and liberty.

The reason the middle east is so chaotic is because of Islam. It's more than a religion, it's an ideology with a political agenda. It's purveyors intend to replace ALL western culture (Judeo / Christian underpinnings) with their brand of rule. They will use any means to accomplish their goals. Communism has the same goals.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

As I mentioned, it is extremely difficult to identify and split up what exactly is Western. How do we establish it and differentiate it? Is it compared to Eastern? In that case, there a whole host of problems in terms of countries that would typically have Western values but are geographically located in the East and vice versa. If we take it as simply a descriptive notion, but not being defined by geographical boundaries or regions, then we can associate its opposite as non-Western. Again, however, it is quite difficult to come to terms with what we mean by these notions.

Some typical ideals and belief systems associated with Western values would be: Freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of information, freedom of association, democracy, individuality, secularism, prosperity, and so on. There are also other things that one might also link to Westernisation in pejorative terms, such as unrestrained capitalism, exploitation of poorer nations, an over-abundance of consumerism, an un-Godliness, hedonism, self-centredness (individualism), and so on.

However, as you can see from the list of generalised terms, if you take any individual country that purports to be Western, there are contradictions galore within these values. The values are not absolute therefore, they are simply used as reference-points for what Western values are. But because there are not perfect States that demonstrate these values, or even close to them, in brings up the question of whether or not Western States are in fact real or if it is just in ideology/theory.

There is no perfection in the real world.

The ideology has been better demonstrated in certain places/times /people than in others.

This thread is meant to help come to terms with what is meant by the notion western values and how it is demonstrated place/time/people.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Western values are broadly generalized as Judeo / Christian values. It's the Puritan work ethic that made the United States the most prosperous, inventive country in world history. Capitalism is in fact the driving engine of success in a country that promotes freedom and liberty.

The reason the middle east is so chaotic is because of Islam. It's more than a religion, it's an ideology with a political agenda. It's purveyors intend to replace ALL western culture (Judeo / Christian underpinnings) with their brand of rule. They will use any means to accomplish their goals. Communism has the same goals.

I would contend, that the Judeo/Christian characterisation, of western values is largely historical and in fact secularism ,has been mentioned several times as being a western value, in the modern sense.
Yes western values is an ideology that most (it seems to me) Islam wishes to replace to one extent or another.

Ahh U.S, people and their flag waving lol.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Yeah 50/50, Turkey's a hard one, but I think a good indicator of how backwards it has become now compared to ten years ago when it could be considered westernised is the disbelief and shock shown when it was heard Merkel wanted to fast-track them into the EU compared to when there was a little push-back but not much ten years ago.

Maybe Japan would be a better example, as a country that actually went out of it's way to become westernised in the Meiji era.

Actually this is interesting in the context of post 18. Turkey and Egypt are very interesting in terms of where they sit and where they are headed in terms of western values.

[kickinthemebs Senior Member Member of the Month Feb 2014 Find all posts View Profile Close kickinthemebs]

And how do you? Where has it been demonstrated in place/time/people? Please do tell, seeing that you don't even have a definition or demonstration about these Western values that you are talking about.

This thread is meant to help come to terms with what is meant by the notion western values and how it is demonstrated place/time/people.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

And how do you? Where has it been demonstrated in place/time/people? Please do tell, seeing that you don't even have a definition or demonstration about these Western values that you are talking about.

We have been discussing this kick ,both in terms of definition and demonstration.
So for instance how is and to what extent is ,Turkey demonstrating western values.

One could look at this in terms of it's own past (even recent), a perceived ideal and even an external requirement (to get into the eec for example)

[Reallyshortblackguy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Reallyshortblackguy]

Oh man i'm too young to understand much of this. Are you asking if the world would be better if everywhere adopted western values ? Or do you want our views on western society and if countries should try to adopt even some aspects of western society?

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

Why is there a difference between Western values and others? Do we not all want the same things? Do we not all want to live our lives in peace, provide and help our children live wonderful lives? Do we not all cherish freedom and love? Are the values between West and others so much different or is it what the media wants us to think? There are much diffference between a Jew and an Orthodox one and yet they live in harmony with each other? Don't you think there are Sunni's and Shitites living together without killing each other? There are. Or are we just talking abut the extremes?

[Reallyshortblackguy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Reallyshortblackguy]

Why is there a difference between Western values and others? Do we not all want the same things? Do we not all want to live our lives in peace, provide and help our children live wonderful lives? Do we not all cherish freedom and love? Are the values between West and others so much different or is it what the media wants us to think? There are much diffference between a Jew and an Orthodox one and yet they live in harmony with each other? Don't you think there are Sunni's and Shitites living together without killing each other? There are. Or are we just talking abut the extremes?

Hmmm, that is deep. I guess some people like living by their own morals and values that they learned growing up in their society and feel threatened when people abandon their own cultures for another countries cultures ( believe i'm using the wrong words), or are being forced to accept another persons culture. Am i correct? I studied sociology in college so i might be confusing things.

[dmizzle Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dmizzle]

I prefer religioun to stay out of government and politics. Let people be free. That goes for women and gays and Muslims. I wouldn't be happy in any other Country but the United States, maybe Canada. I love the diversity, and work ethic of people that realize they can be anything. I went from a heroin addict felon to a Sr. Server Engineer and Architect making great money with a great girl. Only in America. No offense to other Countries, but they dont have the freedoms of the US.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Why is there a difference between Western values and others? Do we not all want the same things? Do we not all want to live our lives in peace, provide and help our children live wonderful lives? Do we not all cherish freedom and love? Are the values between West and others so much different or is it what the media wants us to think? There are much diffference between a Jew and an Orthodox one and yet they live in harmony with each other? Don't you think there are Sunni's and Shitites living together without killing each other? There are. Or are we just talking abut the extremes?

Actually internal conflict and violence along religious lines is common in the Muslim world .
Things like Democracy are not valued everywhere , in some places things like freedom of speech and a free press are seen as degenerate. The status of women in some societies is very different than under modern western values . And so on , yes there is a vast difference between western values and some others ,

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Hmmm, that is deep. I guess some people like living by their own morals and values that they learned growing up in their society and feel threatened when people abandon their own cultures for another countries cultures ( believe i'm using the wrong words), or are being forced to accept another persons culture. Am i correct? I studied sociology in college so i might be confusing things.

Yes so some countries do not have a free press and they think that is right and proper . To criticise the government might get you excecuted . You could get thrown in jail for supporting the rights of a religious or ethnic or religious minority .
On the other hand you could come to a place with western values and be outraged they do not allow you the "freedom" to circumcise your daughter.

[kickinthemebs Senior Member Member of the Month Feb 2014 Find all posts View Profile Close kickinthemebs]

Cool. I am not purposely busting your balls here, but perhaps I can get my point across a bit better with some examples.

Identify whether or not valuing the following things are exemplary of "Western" values or not: Abortion, euthanasia, capital punishment, gay marriage, women's rights, democracy, an adequate social system for the poor, and the right to privacy.

After you determine which ones are Western values, is it just your subjective gut instinct or is it because they have been demonstrated by countries that you categorise as Western. Following from this, are there countries that promote these values that you would typically view as Western or non-Western? It becomes a lot more difficult to identify what exactly are Western values to begin with. Does the States have a lot of similarities with China, how about Qatar? Does the States capitalistic model really have much in common with the values of the Scandinavian system? What about South American countries, African countries, and Eastern European countries? The Western - non-Western dichotomy often relies on the US, Europe, Australia vs. China, Russia, Middle East on the other. How would you classify the rest of the world and why?

So the example you gave is Turkey. Very interesting one. I lived there for a year actually and I am not sure whether I would categorise it as Western or non-Western. Again, I am always baffled by the definition of Western. If it is shopping malls, American TV, trendy clothing brands, a good education system, liberal students, and so on, then it most certainly would be. If it was based on Erdogen's policies while in power, then probably not so much. Okay, we have dealt with the current situation, so let's look at the past: Ataturk (first president of Turkey) was actually extremely liberal and tried to establish Turkey to be a secular nation. For years Turkey has been veering more towards "liberal" policies and desecularisation until relatively recently. Prior to Erdogen's reign, you would probably categorise them as Western (yet I am still baffled about the criteria of this), but not so much now. However, within Turkey it is so disparate that you can't even say that it is veering away from Western beliefs and values, certainly not from my experience of living there for a year. Furthermore, the country is so divided (like a lot of countries), where you can't really say "does Turkey have Western values" as this is just plain stupid. The value system of someone going to University in Ankara and is highly educated to a rural farmer in the backwater of nowhere, to someone who is a staunch PKK member. Trying to generalise about countries about Western or non-Western values is really just pigeon-holing entire populations in the same grouping.

Even in our own neck of the woods, I am sure there are an abundance of people with very different, what you would classify as non-Western beliefs, in your otherwise Westernised country. So is simply down to a demographics game then?

We have been discussing this kick ,both in terms of definition and demonstration.
So for instance how is and to what extent is ,Turkey demonstrating western values.

One could look at this in terms of it's own past (even recent), a perceived ideal and even an external requirement (to get into the eec for example)