Fascia as the limiting factor

[sixrod Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sixrod]

Posted this in my log thread but I'll post it here as well as to initiate discussion:

Been reading lots on fascia lately. Don't know how I bumped into it, but I just realized my limit is not even the tunica as such but specifically "the cord" which is basically just the extra strong part of fascia protecting the dorsal nerve.

I came to realize that even with a full flaccid stretch, my CCs and CS are not even close to being stretched to the max. CC/CS are very pliable and I can manipulate them with ease. However "the cord" on top is taut all the way from behind the glans to as far under the pubic bone as I can reach. Guys, this is not the suspensory ligament. This is buck's fascia. It makes perfect sense it would be the limiting factor as fascia is the human "organ of form" .

Medscape reference:

On the dorsal aspect of the corpora cavernosa, the deep dorsal vein and paired dorsal arteries and branches of the dorsal nerves are contained within the deep penile (Buck) fascia. This fascia splits to surround the corpus spongiosum, and it extends into the perineum as the deep fascia of the ischiocavernosus and bulbospongiosus muscles. The deep penile (Buck) fascia encloses these muscles and each crus of the corpora cavernosa and the bulb of the corpus spongiosum, adhering these structures to the pubis, ischium, and the urogenital diaphragm.

Disregarding the detail that this happens to be penile fascia as it is (AFAIK) no different from the rest of the fascial network; You basically don't stretch fascia with sheer force. The plastic deformation happens in such a narrow window of force it's almost certain that with manual stretching, should you enter plastic deformation, you'll end up tearing the fascia big time. Instead, I'm looking at treatment of contracted/tight fascia around skeletal muscles, there's been some scientific interest to it, and it's under debate. In that sense it would also be understandable why the medical professionals can't say much on penile exercises -- if it is indeed mostly related to manipulation of fascia, then it seems it is simply not yet fully understood.

So now I'm looking at heat again but from a completely different perspective, not as a pre-exercise warm-up, but as the very core of penile exercises.

[donjelqer76 Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close donjelqer76]

This is an area that doesn't get touched on here very often, so I wanted to add to what you're talking about here. (this is my understanding of it from my own reading, there is bound to be some error here but just trying to give more food for thought)

The cord you're referring to is also commonly called the septum. This is the area where the two CC chambers are fused together along their length. Strands from the suspensory ligament bundles anchor along the length of the septum, which some say is what gives it the cord-like feel (i've seen diagrams that represent this quite well actually).

Fulcrum hanging and A-stretches/V-stretches are all said to target the septum very effectively.

I've never seen or read anything on how the Buck's Facia is tied to/interactions with the tunica or septum. This would be a great area to start your research with.

I'll be following this - it's an area I have a lot of interest in, as I have a very pronounced "cord"

[DeepConcentration Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close DeepConcentration]

This looks like a great topic...


Yes the fascia can tear. The plantaris muscle which resides along the back of the knee is blown out of the fascia on both my knees. It doesn't hurt at all and was done over time. I used to run many miles a day when I was young and didnt warmup or stretch properly. Which is the reason it happened.


-DC

[sixrod Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sixrod]

I'm skeptical whether this is the septum as buck's fascia would fit my findings better. The septum lies further below, between the cc's and below all the deep dorsal veins & arteries. Septum does not enclose these structures, but the buck's fascia does and feeling around this "cord" with my fingers, this explanation would make perfect sense to me.

I can move the superficial veins under the skin around but the bunch of deep dorsal veins and nerves I cannot feel on top of this structure, therefore I continue to claim it is the thick top part of the deep fascia of the penis. It protects the veins and nerves by countering my attempts to stretch it beyond its capability, this is exactly what fascia does. Thus, referring to how fascia around skeletal muscles is manipulated, enter heat, massage, and slowly applied stretches.


afp20000101p95-f1.jpg

If We Cannot Stretch Fascia, What Are We Doing? | Massage St. Louis, St. Louis, MO

The lucky thing is, there's plenty more open debate on stretching fascia than stretching the penis.

[sixrod Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sixrod]

More findings on fascia:

fascia.jpg

This underlines the importance of rest as we don't want new collagen to form polarized in the direction of the tension.

This article was specifically on the forming of new collagen, so it would make sense this applies to buck's fascia as well.

[sixrod Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sixrod]

More discussion on fascia. Kind of "good news, bad news".

Good news is that fascia seems to consistently fill the description of the bad guy in penile enlargement. It's good to know who you're up against.

Good news is also that fascia is also a limiting or at least a hindering factor in other areas of human physiology as well, so it's not just the PE community who are interested in how to beat the limits of fascia.

Bad news is that fascia is a really, really tough nut to crack.

Does Fascia Matter?

"You cannot change the structure of fascia, because it is tougher than Kevlar. If the stuff were thicker, people would be bulletproof."

[sixrod Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sixrod]

Fascial Plasticity – A New Neurobiological Explanation

Robert Schleip

Abstract

Part 1: In myofascial manipulation an immediate tissue release is often felt under the working hand. This amazing feature has traditionally been attributed to mechanical properties of the connective tissue. Yet studies have shown that either much stronger forces or longer durations would be required for a permanent viscoelastic deformation of fascia. Fascia nevertheless is densely innervated by mechanoreceptors which are responsive to manual pressure. Stimulation of these sensory receptors has been shown to lead to a lowering of sympathetic tonus as well as a change in local tissue viscosity. Fascia and the autonomic nervous system appear to be intimately connected.

Part 2:: Stimulation of fascial mechanoreceptors can trigger viscosity changes in the ground substance. The discovery and implications of the existence of fascial smooth muscle cells are of special interest in relation to fibromyalgia, amongst other conditions. An attitudinal shift is suggested, from a mechanical body concept towards a cybernetic model, in which the practitioner’s intervention are seen as stimulation for self regulatory processes within the client’s organism. Practical implications of this approach in myofascial manipulation will be explored.

[donjelqer76 Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close donjelqer76]

Good stuff, keep up the excellent research!

[CaptainJohnson Retired ModeratorSenior MemberPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CaptainJohnson]

I know I am kind of necroing this from a few weeks ago, but the subject is rarely discussed. I also have an interest in this, as my fascia is incredibly limiting on my stretches, which I can barely perform. I try to do them lightly anyways, but jelqing is more my bread n' butter.

What I find interesting is that the fascia is not constantly taut. I'd say 70% of the time it is, but 30% of the time my flaccid is soft without the cord-like feeling. Due to this, I think the problem with the fascia is partly a result of muscular tension and/or vascular differences between individuals. This is just an idea in early formation, and I'll start researching some possibilities.

It has been suggested a few times that A, V, and fulcrum stretches are ideal for fascia limited PEers. Whether this is true, who knows. There isn't a lot of info on fascia stretching. I guess the important part is, are you getting gains regardless of your 'cord'? Because if you are, it is worth sharing your routine here. We could compare effective routines and try to discover what exercises are best for cord-based gains.

[sixrod Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sixrod]

I had a break and I'm only now returning to my exercises. I've had no length gains for a while but at least before the break, my fascia-centric approach seemed promising. I'll have to reconfirm the results and progress in the upcoming weeks.

In the meantime, I'm trying to make up my mind regarding the two schools of thought on fascial stretching/elongating: The forceful/microtear/supercompensation approach, or the "suggestive"/massage approach.

It would seem to make sense to first start with the suggestive approach and if that doesn't result in gains after several weeks/months, up the intensity to the forceful approach.

Regardless, my main approach to PE exercises is now centered completely on fascia, both length- as well as girth- wise. So, application of heat and long, eased-into reps as to not initiate a protective response from the tissue.

[TheLion Member Find all posts View Profile Close TheLion]

I had a break and I'm only now returning to my exercises. I've had no length gains for a while but at least before the break, my fascia-centric approach seemed promising. I'll have to reconfirm the results and progress in the upcoming weeks.In the meantime, I'm trying to make up my mind regarding the two schools of thought on fascial stretching/elongating: The forceful/microtear/supercompensation approach, or the "suggestive"/massage approach.It would seem to make sense to first start with the suggestive approach and if that doesn't result in gains after several weeks/months, up the intensity to the forceful approach.Regardless, my main approach to PE exercises is now centered completely on fascia, both length- as well as girth- wise. So, application of heat and long, eased-into reps as to not initiate a protective response from the tissue.

Let me know how it goes. I've decided that fascia is my limiting factor too. These are the strategies I've come up with.

• lots of light tension (hanging or extender use)
• lots of heat (continual warm water soaks, heat pads, floor heater, or something similar)
• something to choke blood flow (cock ring, a compression sleeve like a DivoSuit along entire length of penis, etc)
• chemical injections like PGE-1 that unlinks collagen!

I'm really a believer that the last option is the biggest key of all. I even have some knowledge on how to do it, but I never have because I can't get the damn stuff. How unfortunate....

[sixrod Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sixrod]

Many of the current training schools which focus on myofascial treatment have been profoundly influenced by Rolf (1977). In her own work Rolf applied considerable manual or elbow pressure to fascial sheets in order to change their density and arrangement. Rolf’s own explanation was that connective tissue is a colloidal substance in which the ground substance can be influenced by the application of energy (heat or mechanical pressure) to change its aggregate form from a more dense ‘gel’ state to a more fluid ‘sol’ state. Typical examples of this are common gelatin or butter, which get softer by heating or mechanical pressure. This gel-to-sol transformation, also called thixotropy (Juhan 1987), has been positively confirmed to occur as a result of long-term mechanical stress applications to connective tissue (Twomey and Taylor 1982).

(source: Fascial Plasticity – A New Neurobiological Explanation)

Emphasis in the above quote is by me. Anecdotal evidence suggests using considerable force in PE results in an adapted, tougher penis, making further gains more difficult. On the other hand, looking at all the visual evidence regarding the release of tightened fascia, it looks rather violent! The patients are severely bruised even (or especially) when the treatment is considered successful and the patient reports a significant relief.

How this applies to PE, I do not know.

Table 3 Practical applications
WHERE TO WORK:
1. Short and tight tissues
Bring attention to the primary (inappropriately) shortened and hypertoned myofascial
tissues.
2. Include antagonists
Include bringing attention to the antagonistic muscle fibers of the related joint.
3. Respect receptor density
Give extra time and attention to those tissues that have an usually high density with
mechanoreceptors (suboccipital muscles, periosteum, palmar and plantar fascia,
myotendinous junctions, ligaments).
4. Face and Hands
Give high attention to those myofascial fibers that move the face or hands
5. Abdomen and Pelvis
Deep pressure on visceral nerves as well as sustained pressure on the pelvis have been
proven to increase vagal tonus
HOW TO WORK:
6. Timing
For tonus decrease: slow and melting to induce parasympathetic state and to avoid
myotatic stretch reflex
For focusing attention: stimulating, calling attention, more rapid changes, but never
boring.
7. Ruffini-angle
Tangential pressure (lateral stretch) is ideal to stimulate Ruffini organs, which tend to
lower sympathetic tone.
8. Attention to ANS
Pay great attention to the state of the autonomic nervous system
(which influences the body’s overall tonus regulation).
9. Unusual sensations
Create unusual body sensations that are most likely to be interpreted as ‘significant’
by the filtering action of the reticular formation of the central nervous system; i.e.:
(a) unusually strong stretch of those fibers
(b) unusually subtle stimulation (‘whispering effect’)
(c) unusually specific stimulation
(d) sensations that are always slightly changing/moving in a not precisely predictable
manner
10. Immediate feedback inclusion
As soon as you sense the beginning of a tonus change, mirror this back with your touch
in some way to the tissue. The more precise, immediate and refined your feedback
inclusion is, the more effective your interaction will be.
11. Animistic Thinking
Amotherly caring attitude towards lots of little gnomish entities inhabiting the tissue
triggers usually the highest ‘sensory acuity’ in the practitioner’s (mammalian) nervous
system.
CLIENT PARTICIPATION
12. AMPs
Engage the client in active micromovement participation (AMP). The slower and more
refined they are and the more attention they demand, the better.
13. Ask and allow for a deepening of proprioception.
14. Relate body perceptions and movements to functional activities and include the external
space orientation as well as the social meaning aspects of altered body expressions.

Looking at point 9, it could also be that we interpret an accustomed penis as adapted or tough, while it might be just as weak or strong as before, just not as reactive to manipulation as the sensations are not unusual anymore. This would explain why changing the workout often is the solution to hitting a plateau.

I see both unusually subtle (extending, low-pressure pumping) as well as unusually strong (clamping, hanging, stretches/jelqs/ulis/squeezes/UJs etc) typical to PE. Specific they might be always, as the target of the manipulation is a relatively small area. I'm not sure if the fourth sub-point, "always slightly changing/moving", is being explored much. How could we achieve that? Instead of repeating hundreds of jelqs, maybe interleaving the exercises would gain extra benefits? Food for thought.

[MrPriapus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MrPriapus]

Hey sixrod, have you come to any other new conclusions regarding your research. I've never seen the "thick cord" issue approached from these angles. Thank you for sharing.

[sixrod Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sixrod]

Unfortunately no hard evidence to report. The fascia is called the "organ of form" and it makes perfect sense for it to be the limiting factor, but there's no data to support either way, at least until the bodybuilding community makes a breakthrough in manipulating fascia (which they find limiting muscle growth) and we get to apply to results to PE as well.

[DickerSchwanz Senior Member Member of the Month Sept 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close DickerSchwanz]

Never occured to me. This is the #1 limiting factor.
Fascia is all over the CC's and Tunica!?
Only the CS is kind of free from it it seems.