Emotionally Abused Men

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

... behaviors in women that I enable simply to keep them happy in order to get sex ... we must "work" for sex ...

Some women may do this, but I don't think many intelligent women use it as a weapon in that way, fewer still as an underlying, unspoken weapon - which would be emotional blackmail. I wouldn't tolerate that at all and would basically drop a woman who started doing that like a stone. I mean I've been told "you're not getting any unless you clean the bathroom" but that's not quite the same, it's not in an abusive way, it's like telling a kid to eat their greens and then they can have an ice cream. Nothing wrong there, maybe even a little playful.

No disrespect mate, but I think it's a little naive to think it's anything like as simple as that. Sex is just one of many elements of a relationship. A profound one, maybe, but nobody is quite as simple as to be controlled and motivated by sex alone. At the same time, I'd get those sorts of thoughts out of your head too - sucking up to get sex is not good for you, probably not for her, and it's certainly not attractive.

In the emotionally abusive relationship I had (and am now thankfully free of) sex may well have played a part for a number of reasons, we basically stopped having sex, partly as a result of her behaviour, partly as a result of my PE problem and so on. Point is she didn't refuse me sex, nor I her, we just stopped doing it for one reason or another. I don't doubt that her sexual frustration played some part in her state of mind, but it certainly wasn't the whole story. It may be interesting to consider that she had a number of difficult things going on in her life at the time that were distressing for her, and she almost certainly took some of that out on me, like she couldn't control *this* side of her life and it was hurting her, so she maybe felt that by trying to control *that* side (i.e. our relationship/me) she could claim some sort of control back? I don't know. It's academic anyway. Conjecture or not, understanding it doesn't make It justified. I don't think she was truly spiteful - well, maybe a touch disrespectful on occasion, it's more like some kind of control valve went and her immediate thoughts and responses were no longer vetted and she'd just act on them there and then.

[phil88 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close phil88]

Lol where are you getting cleaning the bathroom or sucking up from? I'm talking about much simpler things men do, humoring stupid ideas, listening to shitty songs, basically not being the jackass's we usually are .

Also at what point in my post did I say women use anything as a weapon? I'm saying men are in the wrong for treating women a certain way and then not enjoying the result.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Wow.......holy crap! I read that article all the way through and while I didn't answer "yes" to all of the questions asked, I answered "yes" to several of them which is why I ditched my ex gf a few weeks back. She was EXTREMELY emotionally abusive while I was with her and not only did I always find myself walking on egg shells while with her because Lord knows I didn't want to rock the boat but I also waited for the other shoe to drop. I think fortunately for me, I wasn't with her long enough to allow her to effect me on a mental basis. Shortly after we started being back together again, she gave me signs that she had changed and then slowly as the weeks passed, she went right back into her normal habits, flipping out over stupid things, shutting me out and just being a mean, nasty bitch.

So, having finally had enough of her shit and abuse, I politely told her to go fuck herself. That was when she sent me a scathing, hate filled, nasty ass email whereby she demeaned me, made our failure as a couple my fault and told me I was a pathetic excuse for a husband, father and man. It was then I realized that I made the right decision by taking out the trash. She also had a terrible childhood and was emotionally abused by her ex husband. Yep, she's a piece of work and fortunately, she's out of my life.

I can relate to everything you've said, Be thankful you got out of it, I was 2 years in to a 5 year relationship before it started and by then I was in too deep to give her the boot there and then. I strongly suspect she had an abusive past & childhood, but I could never get it out of her. Certainly there was something rattling around in her past that was still screwing her up, 25-30 years later.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Lol where are you getting cleaning the bathroom or sucking up from? I'm talking about much simpler things men do, humoring stupid ideas, listening to shitty songs, basically not being the jackass's we usually are .

Also at what point in my post did I say women use anything as a weapon? I'm saying men are in the wrong for treating women a certain way and then not enjoying the result.

Sorry if I misunderstood. (edit) My point was really about sex and control, in regards to the OP.

Personally I'm much the same jackass with women as I am with men. I'd rather be with a woman who I could relate to than someone I had to pretend to be somebody else around for the sake of getting my dick wet. Each to their own I guess. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm sure loads of people are like this, I just don't think it's a great idea, I think largely you get what you ask for in this life. Garbage in, garbage out as they say.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

... a bunch of behaviors in women that I enable simply to keep them happy in order to get sex.

Not attacking you mate, all friends here, but how is that different to "sucking up" to get sex?

[phil88 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close phil88]

Sorry if I misunderstood. (edit) My point was really about sex and control, in regards to the OP.

Personally I'm much the same jackass with women as I am with men. I'd rather be with a woman who I could relate to than someone I had to pretend to be somebody else around for the sake of getting my dick wet. Each to their own I guess. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm sure loads of people are like this, I just don't think it's a great idea, I think largely you get what you ask for in this life. Garbage in, garbage out as they say.

I'd like to think the same thing about myself, sadly I know better. The OP actually starts on what I am talking about though when mentioning learned behaviors.

[phil88 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close phil88]

Not attacking you mate, all friends here, but how is that different to "sucking up" to get sex?

Well when sucking up is apparently cleaning the bathroom to get sex thats getting a little ridiculous and degrading. I think honestly I am saying men have more consideration for the feelings of the women they are trying to have sex with.

Sucking up would be doing something you have to do in order to get sex, as in if you did not take out the trash, then no sex, well than taking out the trash would be sucking up. Letting her pick the movie to keep her in a good mood, enabling.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Well when sucking up is apparently cleaning the bathroom to get sex thats getting a little ridiculous and degrading. I think honestly I am saying men have more consideration for the feelings of the women they are trying to have sex with.

Sucking up would be doing something you have to do in order to get sex, as in if you did not take out the trash, then no sex, well than taking out the trash would be sucking up. Letting her pick the movie to keep her in a good mood, enabling.

Fair enough, slightly different scenario. I probably shouldn't have rustled up an example as that's only confused the issue. Such things really weren't that big of a deal, and while I never refused to "take out the trash" as such when that happened, I'm pretty sure I'd have still got some if I hadn't, as there's a bit of a playful edge to it, it wasn't a psychological/control thing. You can usually tell if someone is trying to manipulate you as opposed to playing around with status for fun. Actually I think that can be quite sexy if she's playing at asserting herself, challenging me to be the man and to take charge. In that scenario there's a world of difference between just going "yes ma'am" or taking it on the chin and teasing her back. I'm sure it could become degrading if you were submissive enough to allow her to control you that way. I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of scenario you still didn't get any, because you were being a pussy.

[dsmall Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dsmall]

Great Stuff, but the more interesting question for us lovers of the borderlines is "Why do we seek out relationship partners who are incapable of being involved in a relationship?" The answer is brutal, but true. it's because we love being in love with a crazy abusive witch (or bastard). A BPD or NPD person is someone who will never bore you; you will never have to focus on your own problems because the focus will always be on them; you can totally lose yourself in their drama. There is no mundane or ordinary when you love a BPD or NPD. Any normal conversation can shift and become a screaming dramatic event. And we absolutely love and crave this drama. It makes us feel special that we are charged with an impossible task. We have voluntarily decided that it is our mission to make this person who is incapable of feeling joy, love or happiness--happy. And darnit, we will make this bitch (or bastard) happy--even if it kills us.

Here is the root problem guys and the terrifying truth. We do not experience happiness internally. We don't know what it is or how to make ourselves happy. Our happiness depends upon somebody else's emotions or experiences. If she seems happy, then we are less anxious and give ourselves permission to be happy. If she is unhappy, then its our responsibility to make her happy--otherwise we can't be happy--because we don't know what that even means. Happiness, our own, becomes defined and dependent about whether the other person is "happy."

Persons who seek BPD or NPD are vacuums--devoid of any ability to understand happiness or make themselves happy without an outside reference personality. And to the extent that I had a 15 year history being married to a black hole, I can include myself in this category. Our emotions and joy is completely independent upon that person. Because we are vacuums, we choose black holes, the densest matter known in the universe to fill that vacuum. And a black hole is so satisfying to a vacuum because it can absorb or take anything we throw into it and will never stop sucking. A black hole and vacuum can achieve a state of equilibrium where there is nothing more for the black hole to absorb because the vacuum is empty. There is no "self" to countervail the "raging and consuming self" of the black hole. A vacuum is a perfect counterweight to the black hole.

With credit but not overcredit to Freud, this dynamic usually occurs because you witnessed and were victimized by this behavior as children growing up in your own family. You find this behavior normal and even attractive because it is so familiar. In fact, to you, it's what a couple looks like and how they interact. With credit to Skinner, you have been conditioned to think that this is what a normal healthy relationship looks like. And the NPD or BPD engages in this type of relationship for the same reason. They have been conditioned and damaged sufficiently to be incapable of seeing anything beyond their own raging want at any particular time.

Talking about abuse in this context is a bit false. Because the vacuum is getting precisely what he or she wants out of a relationship with a black hole. And that is a massive amount of crap to fill the vacuum. Both parties to this relationship are damaged and essentially empty.

What's the cure? It's not just walking away from the BPD or BPD, because you certainly will go out and find another one. And as a vacuum, you will attract them and find them with remarkable precision. Yes, you need to end the relationship with the black hole, because you are not going to cure them. The more important step is to deal with your own vacuum; and that is to decide who the fuck you really are, and what you want. You need to stand alone for some period and really figure if there is anything inside there apart from this queer dance you've been doing with a black hole.

IMHO, the cure is as follows: Exercise--take care of yourself physically, and make yourself feel better; Good Diet--eat food that makes you feel better not worse; Mediate--be able to sit for 20 minutes per day and survive with your own thoughts, control what you think about; Embrace conflict constructively--relationships have conflict; deal with them and fight fair while expecting others to do the same; don't run away from it, it will only get bigger, don't allow people to treat you unfairly; Form your own value system and stick with it--what decisions make you move forward and feel better; what decisions make you feel like crap, and make you feel better; Avoid Black Holes and eliminate them from every aspect of your life-- black holes are like heroin to you, you need to avoid them like heroin. Invest only in people who invest positively back into you--they are out there, you just ignore them because they are so boring in compared to the roller coaster of investing in black holes.

None of this is selfish behavior. In fact, it's normal behavior. You need to be able to fill your own vacuum and figure out what it is that makes happy. I am not a big fan of organized religion because I think it attracts a lot of black holes who can use other people's faith to manipulate and abuse other people. But I am a big fan of what religion and other forms of spirituality are supposed to be doing, which is to ask the question, aside from eating, fucking, shitting, making more people to do the same, and acquiring stuff, why am I here and what makes this journey valuable? I don't believe that the answer is to try and fill up a black hole. And pondering that question and trying to find that meaning, is an exciting invigorating quest--even if you never reach the destination. You can't even start that quest if you are investing 110% of your energy filling the black hole. You become the mythical titan that pushes up the rock to the top of the mountain, only to have it roll back to the start the next day.

But reveling in the fact that we have been abused is self-defeating. It's like the story of the woman who nursed the snake back to life and then gets bit. It's in the snake's nature to bite the person that takes care of it. The BPD and NPD acted precisely the way you wanted them to act, you chose them because they acted that way, and then they acted consistent with their nature, you are fucking surprised?

Every minute we are on this earth, breathing this air, watching kids grow and adults age, is an absolute miracle. Who are you, and what are you going to do with this opportunity is the only question? If you believe in God, you can't think he or she wanted you to waste this time and roll the rock up the hill; if you don't believe in God, well this is the only chance you are going to get and then you are going to rot away in eternity, why waste it? Every second investing in a black hole is time lost from what you could be doing to figure it all out and be happy.

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

I think my downfall (and probably many other men) is that I am the eternal optimist. As the article said:

"Abusive personality types frequently have a very charismatic and seductive side. If she was all bad all the time, you’d have never become involved with her, right? Their charming side is how they suck people in. Over time, the charm wears thin and their abusive traits dominate."

I only dated her for 6 months. While I saw small signs of temper and control no major alarms went off until about 3 months after we were married. By then it was too late and I dismissed it as stress and/or she will change.

My advice, get to know someone VERY well before you jump into a relationship of any kind with them.

[Editor Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Editor]

I think my downfall (and probably many other men) is that I am the eternal optimist. As the article said:

"Abusive personality types frequently have a very charismatic and seductive side. If she was all bad all the time, you’d have never become involved with her, right? Their charming side is how they suck people in. Over time, the charm wears thin and their abusive traits dominate."

I only dated her for 6 months. While I saw small signs of temper and control no major alarms went off until about 3 months after we were married. By then it was too late and I dismissed it as stress and/or she will change.

My advice, get to know someone VERY well before you jump into a relationship of any kind with them.

Great advice sir.

[dsmall Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dsmall]

I think my downfall (and probably many other men) is that I am the eternal optimist. As the article said:

"Abusive personality types frequently have a very charismatic and seductive side. If she was all bad all the time, you’d have never become involved with her, right? Their charming side is how they suck people in. Over time, the charm wears thin and their abusive traits dominate."

I only dated her for 6 months. While I saw small signs of temper and control no major alarms went off until about 3 months after we were married. By then it was too late and I dismissed it as stress and/or she will change.

My advice, get to know someone VERY well before you jump into a relationship of any kind with them.

Very good advice. Actually, the signs of BPD was there initially. BPD's do things like marry a person that they only dated for 6 months. One of the chief attributes of BPD is impulsiveness and a craving for stability that they are unable to deal with when they get it. A person who doesn't have BPD would be far less likely to marry a person who they only knew for 6 months. So, the real question is why did you marry a girl you only dated for 6 months? What was the rush? Were you afraid that if you said, "Hey, I love this relationship, but there are kids involved from a prior relationship and we should probably have a lengthy engagement of at least a year, so that everybody is comfortable?" Were you afraid that if you said what a normal person would say, which is we should probably get to know each other a bit better before we get married, that she would leave, get angry, throw a tantrum?

This is a great thread. But the focus has to be on us or the person who attracts and engages BPD, NPD, or abusers. The question isn't whether she had the ability to hide her personality defect for a few months and lure you in. She probably did to some extent. The question is why you didn't you proceed the way a well adjusted person would with respect to a new relationship, which is get to know her for some period of time before you married her.

I'm not judging you. I married a BPD the first time and I dated her for 5 years. I just convinced myself that her instability was due to the fact that it was a difficult time because we were both in college and it was a tough place to have a committed relationship, that when we got married it would all go away; then it would all go away when I was done with professional school, then it would all go away when I was more established in my profession; then it would all go away when we had kids; bought a house; paid off all our school debts. Guess what, it never went away. She didn't trick me. I just didn't want to see what was staring me in the face. The first time that the guy across from the pay phone told me that my girlfriend called 15 times in an hour frantically trying to get a hold of me, and would sometimes let the phone ring a hundred times, it was there.

I didn't see that normal well adjusted college girls don't want to get married during college. They are happy being normal college kids. Normal college boys told a college girl who wanted to get married, "Hey, I've got 4 more years of school to get through, let's worry about marriage then."

You didn't see that normal healthy well adjusted women who have a happy dating relationship for 6 months are quite happy dating. They are not so insecure that they think that if they are not married the very next minute the love will go away. What is charismatic and seductive is their desperation to hang onto you, it is captivating to folks, like me, who are vacuums.

[Flanker6 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Flanker6]

My mother is a pretty good example of someone not to date. Don't think I hate my mother. I don't, quite the opposite I love her very much. But I'll be damned if I marry someone like her. Growing up with someone who would get perpetually angry at the tiniest of matters has taught me to look for laid back women. So far I've done a pretty good job and I never seem to attract the clingy girls or the ones that like to argue. In that respect I'm lucky. Others are not so fortunate.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

There's a hell of a lot of information, advice etc here and so much stuff to take in, but I do think there are a couple of important things to note.

1) there's a danger here of being slightly misogynist.. or at least overly dismissive. It's all very well to label certain women with a "disorder" but ultimately these things often aren't diseases you can treat with a pill, or conditions you can address from birth, they're largely the result of past experiences, just like YOUR personality is, and however deeply held that person's underlying beliefs may be, there's still a fucked up person underneath just like you or me, and just as valuable as you or me, who might just need somebody to give them the right challenge to open them up. Sometimes you're able to get there, sometimes you're not. That's life. I recognise there are benefits to categorising people's state of mind to a degree, as it gives you some perspective to work from with common and shared experience, but such labels can equally be incredibly arrogant and degrading, and I'd be extremely mindful of this with somebody I loved.

The other aspect is you, and how you react to such a personality. Is it necessarily so that somebody's personality is disordered just because you can't deal with it? Ultimately we're all in the same boat. We're born... mad shit happens... and then we die. That bit in the middle is something we all share with equal innocence from day one. There's a huge difference between how you respond to somebody you love and somebody you just met. In the latter case, if somebody's fucked up, it's not your problem. let them work it out their own way, or whatever. But in the first case, don't you have a duty to that person to be strong and show them some discipline and compassion? I'm not saying every man is capable of doing that in this sort of situation. I certainly wasn't when it came down to it, but I accept that as my failing too. My point is that both parties have failed in some way. She's got some screwed up ideas about status, worth and control, and you're not wise and strong enough to be a protector and deal with it. There's no shame in that, we're all babies working it out as we go along, but again, these labels are as much about apportioning blame as they are about any sort of practical analysis, and it's worth taking a step back now and then to maintain one's perspective.

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

Very good advice. Actually, the signs of BPD was there initially. BPD's do things like marry a person that they only dated for 6 months. One of the chief attributes of BPD is impulsiveness and a craving for stability that they are unable to deal with when they get it. A person who doesn't have BPD would be far less likely to marry a person who they only knew for 6 months. So, the real question is why did you marry a girl you only dated for 6 months? What was the rush? Were you afraid that if you said, "Hey, I love this relationship, but there are kids involved from a prior relationship and we should probably have a lengthy engagement of at least a year, so that everybody is comfortable?" Were you afraid that if you said what a normal person would say, which is we should probably get to know each other a bit better before we get married, that she would leave, get angry, throw a tantrum?

This is a great thread. But the focus has to be on us or the person who attracts and engages BPD, NPD, or abusers. The question isn't whether she had the ability to hide her personality defect for a few months and lure you in. She probably did to some extent. The question is why you didn't you proceed the way a well adjusted person would with respect to a new relationship, which is get to know her for some period of time before you married her.

I'm not judging you. I married a BPD the first time and I dated her for 5 years. I just convinced myself that her instability was due to the fact that it was a difficult time because we were both in college and it was a tough place to have a committed relationship, that when we got married it would all go away; then it would all go away when I was done with professional school, then it would all go away when I was more established in my profession; then it would all go away when we had kids; bought a house; paid off all our school debts. Guess what, it never went away. She didn't trick me. I just didn't want to see what was staring me in the face. The first time that the guy across from the pay phone told me that my girlfriend called 15 times in an hour frantically trying to get a hold of me, and would sometimes let the phone ring a hundred times, it was there.

I didn't see that normal well adjusted college girls don't want to get married during college. They are happy being normal college kids. Normal college boys told a college girl who wanted to get married, "Hey, I've got 4 more years of school to get through, let's worry about marriage then."

You didn't see that normal healthy well adjusted women who have a happy dating relationship for 6 months are quite happy dating. They are not so insecure that they think that if they are not married the very next minute the love will go away. What is charismatic and seductive is their desperation to hang onto you, it is captivating to folks, like me, who are vacuums.

Great points!

As for me getting sucked in, it was all in the timing. I had been recently (8 months) divorced after 13 years. I thought I was ready to move on. My former wife was a druggie and suffered from schizophrenia and OCD. She was in and out of rehab and institutions. I think I may have some sort of subconscious attraction to women with mental issues, maybe I have some of my own? Or maybe it was just another unrelated bad choice.

Either way, my soon to be ex and I had a long distance relationship. We lived 1500 miles apart in different states. At first (as I'm sure is the case in most marriages) she was a dream come true. I did have reservations as to why her ex-husband left after 13 years. She was beautiful, amazing body, great homemaker, fantastic cook, etc. I think I was just afraid of being alone. So, I didn't want to risk losing this "gem" I had found so I jumped in head first. I had been looking for work in the state where she lived and before long I was laid off at my employer and incidentally got an offer near her home. Things just kind of fell in place and it felt like the right thing to do.

You are right about the BPD signs being there from the start. At the time I had no idea the condition even existed much less what the symptoms were. I simply dismissed the abusive/destructive behavior as stress induced. Hindsight is always 20/20.