Emotionally Abused Men

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

BPD's do things like marry a person that they only dated for 6 months.

Marriage is a shared commitment and choice though, right? I mean I'm not gonna get married ever, no matter how much I'm in love (and I have certainly been IN love) but my point is no matter how much a partner wanted to marry, I just don't believe in it. And ultimately, if she would drop me for that, then she wasn't with me for the right reasons, so yeah, that might hurt, but the right result came to pass. My point is that staying true to yourself is CRUCIAL to your happiness.

forgive me for not responding to the entirety of your post, I totally respect your wisdom and what you have to say here, there's just a lot of it!

[phil88 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close phil88]

Marriage is a shared commitment and choice though, right? I mean I'm not gonna get married ever, no matter how much I'm in love (and I have certainly been IN love) but my point is no matter how much a partner wanted to marry, I just don't believe in it. And ultimately, if she would drop me for that, then she wasn't with me for the right reasons, so yeah, that might hurt, but the right result came to pass. My point is that staying true to yourself is CRUCIAL to your happiness.

forgive me for not responding to the entirety of your post, I totally respect your wisdom and what you have to say here, there's just a lot of it!

Kind of off topic but how do I differentiate staying true to myself from giving myself what I want? I mean lets say I want "her" but I know it wont end well, or will only be for a short period of time.

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

I recognize there are benefits to categorizing people's state of mind to a degree, as it gives you some perspective to work from with common and shared experience, but such labels can equally be incredibly arrogant and degrading, and I'd be extremely mindful of this with somebody I loved.

I completely agree. We are all a little dysfunctional in one way or another. However, the red flag goes way up when our behavior becomes abusive to others. While this syndrome is rare and can't be used to label any woman that doesn't treat us like kings, there are several unhealthy behavior patterns that define this condition.

When I started reading about this disorder it was like reading articles about my life. The similarities are way beyond coincidental.
I read some comments on message boards that sounded like the guy was describing my wife.

Yes, we must remember there is a loving, caring human being behind this illness. But, just like with an alcoholic, you can't let someone else's misfortune destroy you and everyone around you...

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Kind of off topic but how do I differentiate staying true to myself from giving myself what I want? I mean lets say I want "her" but I know it wont end well, or will only be for a short period of time.

well then you have the choice to enter into it with your eyes open. I'm not suggesting for a second that this is easy, hell, I know first hand that it isn't, but it's a lesson I've learnt, and if that makes me a hard so-and-so then so be it.

Of course, it's just as likely that I'll meet somebody hot as hell, and mad as hell, and all of these assertions of the "right thing to do" will just go the way of the dodo. I recognise that I'm not infallible, but I sure as hell know NOW what to aim for. It's just a shame it was so tough learning that lesson.

[phil88 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close phil88]

Was the lesson worth it? If you could go back would you be with that certain someone again? Even knowing how it will end and the pain you will go through?

[dsmall Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dsmall]

There's a hell of a lot of information, advice etc here and so much stuff to take in, but I do think there are a couple of important things to note.

1) there's a danger here of being slightly misogynist.. or at least overly dismissive. It's all very well to label certain women with a "disorder" but ultimately these things often aren't diseases you can treat with a pill, or conditions you can address from birth, they're largely the result of past experiences, just like YOUR personality is, and however deeply held that person's underlying beliefs may be, there's still a fucked up person underneath just like you or me, and just as valuable as you or me, who might just need somebody to give them the right challenge to open them up. Sometimes you're able to get there, sometimes you're not. That's life. I recognise there are benefits to categorising people's state of mind to a degree, as it gives you some perspective to work from with common and shared experience, but such labels can equally be incredibly arrogant and degrading, and I'd be extremely mindful of this with somebody I loved.

Actually, they are not quite sure what causes personality disorders, including BPD or NPD. The verdict is out on whether its nature or nurture. For example, just because one sibling has a disorder does not mean it will go across the board. Autism, for example, is characterized by lack of empathy, but it also has a broad spectrum of other problems; and it is really unclear whether these discrete personality disorders are biochemical or what, or just a disorder that affects the part of the brain that generates empathetic feelings. They simply just don't know. It's not a label. It is a real DSM-IV diagnosis albeit NPD is a bit controversial under the newest version. It certainly needs to be diagnosed by a professional. Every angry pissed off female is not a borderline. Borderlines do tend to run more female, but Anti-social Personality Disorder (sociopath) runs more male. It's not misogony, its just how these disorders tend to run in the population. Schizophrenia tends to be more male, bipolar more female. They don't know why. In my situation, my ex-spouse was diagnosed after we married. There was a lot of therapy involved. Unfortunately, the prognosis for any real recovery is very poor. Relationships with borderlines are a futile exercise.

The other aspect is you, and how you react to such a personality. Is it necessarily so that somebody's personality is disordered just because you can't deal with it? Ultimately we're all in the same boat. We're born... mad shit happens... and then we die. That bit in the middle is something we all share with equal innocence from day one. There's a huge difference between how you respond to somebody you love and somebody you just met. In the latter case, if somebody's fucked up, it's not your problem. let them work it out their own way, or whatever. But in the first case, don't you have a duty to that person to be strong and show them some discipline and compassion? I'm not saying every man is capable of doing that in this sort of situation. I certainly wasn't when it came down to it, but I accept that as my failing too. My point is that both parties have failed in some way. She's got some screwed up ideas about status, worth and control, and you're not wise and strong enough to be a protector and deal with it. There's no shame in that, we're all babies working it out as we go along, but again, these labels are as much about apportioning blame as they are about any sort of practical analysis, and it's worth taking a step back now and then to maintain one's perspective.

True. Relationships are a give and take. If you are speaking about a relationship with a person who is having transitory problems due to situational stress--all true. If you are talking about a relationship with a diagnosed borderline or NPD, it's not failure. Their capacity for a loving relationship is very limited, if not absent. It does sound harsh; and they deserve our empathy and our support, to the extent you can give it without enabling or participating in the behavior. But the disease itself involves a tremendous amount of deceit and manipulation of others. They do not appear to feel empathy the way a normal personality type does (and again normal is a subjective and loaded word). A relationship with a BPD is a wild ride. They are interesting to be around. Again, assuming that they can be treated, which so far, the prognosis does not appear to be very promising, I guess it might be worthwhile trying to be supportive and nonjudgmental.

At the risk of being cynical, there are people in the world that are broken beyond the capacity of a loving person to repair. They can only repair themselves, and the disorder is a serious impediment to them having the insight or capacity to do so. Yes, it is very pessimistic. And that is part of their appeal to folks who love them. It makes them very special. BPD and NPD tend to cut off most other people in the world so the folks who invest in such personality types tend to see themselves as being the person's only chance. If they leave or abandon them, there is nobody else because they are so isolated. The BPD or NPD often demands that the co-dependent isolate themselves from anybody else but them so the problem feeds off each other.

[Iguana Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Iguana]

True. Relationships are a give and take. If you are speaking about a relationship with a person who is having transitory problems due to situational stress--all true. If you are talking about a relationship with a diagnosed borderline or NPD, it's not failure. Their capacity for a loving relationship is very limited, if not absent. It does sound harsh; and they deserve our empathy and our support, to the extent you can give it without enabling or participating in the behavior. But the disease itself involves a tremendous amount of deceit and manipulation of others. They do not appear to feel empathy the way a normal personality type does (and again normal is a subjective and loaded word). A relationship with a BPD is a wild ride. They are interesting to be around. Again, assuming that they can be treated, which so far, the prognosis does not appear to be very promising, I guess it might be worthwhile trying to be supportive and nonjudgmental.

At the risk of being cynical, there are people in the world that are broken beyond the capacity of a loving person to repair. They can only repair themselves, and the disorder is a serious impediment to them having the insight or capacity to do so. Yes, it is very pessimistic. And that is part of their appeal to folks who love them. It makes them very special. BPD and NPD tend to cut off most other people in the world so the folks who invest in such personality types tend to see themselves as being the person's only chance. If they leave or abandon them, there is nobody else because they are so isolated. The BPD or NPD often demands that the co-dependent isolate themselves from anybody else but them so the problem feeds off each other.

Wow! That is right off the BPD sites and message boards. Sadly, probably 95%+ there agree that trying to have a relationship with someone who suffers from this sad illness is futile. They even say many psychiatrists refuse to treat them because of the difficulty/failure rate. Very sad, especially if it's someone you love...

[dsmall Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dsmall]

Great points!

As for me getting sucked in, it was all in the timing. I had been recently (8 months) divorced after 13 years. I thought I was ready to move on. My former wife was a druggie and suffered from schizophrenia and OCD. She was in and out of rehab and institutions. I think I may have some sort of subconscious attraction to women with mental issues, maybe I have some of my own? Or maybe it was just another unrelated bad choice.

Either way, my soon to be ex and I had a long distance relationship. We lived 1500 miles apart in different states. At first (as I'm sure is the case in most marriages) she was a dream come true. I did have reservations as to why her ex-husband left after 13 years. She was beautiful, amazing body, great homemaker, fantastic cook, etc. I think I was just afraid of being alone. So, I didn't want to risk losing this "gem" I had found so I jumped in head first. I had been looking for work in the state where she lived and before long I was laid off at my employer and incidentally got an offer near her home. Things just kind of fell in place and it felt like the right thing to do.

You are right about the BPD signs being there from the start. At the time I had no idea the condition even existed much less what the symptoms were. I simply dismissed the abusive/destructive behavior as stress induced. Hindsight is always 20/20.

The past is past. What I bolded is what you have to get a handle on. Why do you think that the only women you deserve are women who are abusive or have personality disorders? If you can't get a handle on this, you will find another one and go for another crazy ride. And I must say, without revealing my profession or trade, that many very successful, well educated, and accomplished types, have a real knack for attracting these ladies. Spend some time observing very high functioning doctors, lawyers, and executives interact with their wives, and they are often on their third or fourth one. And when I meet the 4th one, I often think, "Given how batshit crazy No. 4, is, how could much crazier was number 3 that this could possibly be any better?"

[dsmall Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dsmall]

Wow! That is right off the BPD sites and message boards. Sadly, probably 95%+ there agree that trying to have a relationship with someone who suffers from this sad illness is futile. They even say many psychiatrists refuse to treat them because of the difficulty/failure rate. Very sad, especially if it's someone you love...

I wish I could say that I learned this on a message board. My lessons have been far more personal and painful. Try parenting two wonderful boys with a borderline ex spouse. I can forgive myself for my own crazy ride, I find it harder to forgive myself for not being able to totally protect them from the same. Fortunately, they are with me more than half the time.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Was the lesson worth it? If you could go back would you be with that certain someone again? Even knowing how it will end and the pain you will go through?

That's a very good question. I don't honestly know the answer to that.

[phil88 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close phil88]

What advice would you give to someone contemplating stepping into a similar situation?

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

What advice would you give to someone contemplating stepping into a similar situation?

Don't be afraid to walk away.

[phil88 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close phil88]

Oh sorry I was not very clear, I do not mean a similar situation to the one really described in this thread. There is no personality disorder or anything. Similar in the sense it probably wont end well.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

I'm sorry, I really struggle ethically with all this diagnosis. You could equally "diagnose" high school kids as "preppies" or "emos" or whatever tribe sombody might identify with. Sure there are severe mental illnesses, I get that, I just worry that the illness line is being drawn ever closer to the absolutely normal variation in personality and experience that we all share, and I'm fearful of the idea that if we keep this up there might one day be a pill to cure being "a bit different".

I mean look at autism as dsmall brought up, it's a spectrum, right? I, perhaps like many people jokingly consider my anal retentiveness about ordering my CDs alphabetically, and various other odd things like preferring symmetry in photographs (and vistas) as a little autistic. But in very real terms what IS that? Am I a paragraph in some OCD risk group? Or am I actually just a guy with some harmless foibles?

Sexuality is the same. Very few people are 100% straight or 100% gay. The huge majority of us, like it or not, admit it or not, sit somewhere on a gradient between the two. The labels don't help, although people do choose which way they wish to be labelled, but that's a social thing, a tribal, belonging thing. How is that so different to the other hundreds of elements that make up our personality?

Maybe I'm worrying too much, but I don't think so. I mean I understand that childhood trauma can have profound effects in people's adult lives, but these things can be addressed on those terms, surely? It's like when I concluded from talking to others that my ex might have bipolar disorder or BPD, I started looking into it, and very quickly it left a bitter taste in my mouth. This was a person I LOVED. Deeply. I just felt there was more to her than this, however much she hurt me. I realised it didn't actually matter if she was row 10 column x4 subsection 3 of some textbook, it mattered how she and I could get on with our lives.

At the end of the day, I'm a poor man's armchair psychologist, so what do I know. I have to trust that the people who actually run this field are responsible and on top of things, I guess there's just something that sends a chill up my spine about this sort of absolute pigeonholing of people.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Oh sorry I was not very clear, I do not mean a similar situation to the one really described in this thread. There is no personality disorder or anything. Similar in the sense it probably wont end well.

haha, it's slightly less clear to me now! I guess the same advice probably still applies - don't lose yourself.