American Politics

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

Two farmers and their wives live next to each other. They both have the same amount of land and they can only grow enough to feed themselves. 5 years later one of the farmers wives becomes pregnant. As her pregnancy advances the farmer must stay in his field longer and longer hours.He now has to feed himself and wife but now a child as well.

The farmer who's wife is not pregnant calls him a fool for getting his wife pregnant. His sits on his porch and has a drink or two while he watches the soon to be father toil long into the night to try and grow enough food for his family.

The child is born and as he grows he helps his father out in the field. The wife and mother work less. Two strong guys can grow enough to feed all three of them and have a bit left over.

The childless farmer and his wife continue to work their farm but they grow older. Their farm produces less and less as they get older while the father and son still produces enough even as the father grows older.

Soon the childless farmer comes to the father and son and asks for food. The father remembers the man sitting on his porch and calling him a fool as he worked well into the night to feed his family. Why should the dad/farmer give his neighbor the fruits of his hard work?

Because you should treat your neighbours with compassion. Because it is in the interests of the farmer to help not only himself, but his community. Because the collective is more important than the individual and because it's the right thing to do. The alternative option is to let him starve I guess, out of principle, which is an evil thing to do.

[MisterBator Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MisterBator]

I personally like some of the things Trump has done. I'm not aware of everything, but the tax reduction is a start, as is the defunding of the UN. I think if he managed to trim the fat out of the government and cut out all the useless leaches that are only there to suck the lifeblood out of the nation and add more rules and regulations it would be another great step in the right direction.

I don't particularly like that government involves itself in trade deals, where it should be up to businesses to deal directly with its customers. However you could do worse than Trump doing the dealing I suppose.

If anyone is interested, I came across this guy on youtube who makes the best case for capitalism I have ever come across and if after watching you are still a devout socialist then I'm very sorry, there is no hope for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44E6ujRLchs

Watched the thing in its entirety. Thank you for sharing. Validated many of my views of society that I've conceived myself through life experience. Which of course most would find themselves on the other side of the argument with.

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

The point of the story is that we ourselves are responsible for what we do. Communism/socialism will never work because of this thing called human nature.
Maybe the father and son would share their hard work with their neighbor. What happens if the father got sick leaving only the son to work and he can only grow enough for the three of them? So the guy and his wife who never though ahead starves.

Human nature tells us that some will work hard, some not so hard and some barely at all. Some of those that work hard will share greatly, some will share a bit and some not at all. Tell me why they should share? They should share out of compassion for the guy who didn't really work hard? Why should compassion simply be a one way street? Why should the have nots scream about the greed of those who have? What do the have nots have to give in return?

We all have the capacity to add to society and each other. If you choose not to do so then then it's the risk you take and it is your choice, your responsibility and you should not scream about their greed but rather your own stupidity and laziness.

[burtybasset Retired Moderator Member of the Month May 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close burtybasset]

Because you should treat your neighbours with compassion. Because it is in the interests of the farmer to help not only himself, but his community. Because the collective is more important than the individual and because it's the right thing to do. The alternative option is to let him starve I guess, out of principle, which is an evil thing to do.

The collective is not more important than the individual and is actually just a collection of individuals anyway.

It seems funny talking about starvation and evil given all of the collectivist regimes that have murdered 10's if not 100's of millions of people over the 20th century.

The farmer in the story isn't responsible for the other farmer anyway. He has no claim to his property, nor is he entitled to his labour and given the "community" treatment the other farmer shared with him previously, he reaps what he sows unless the farmer makes the choice of his own free will to help him.

Personally I believe in forgiveness, but this is my own personal choice, not an enforcement by some collective. Not yet at least.

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

Here's an example of human nature I ran into 2 hours ago. I went to Ace Hardware;they have signs posted all through the store. Round up and donate to St Judes Children Hospital . The man in front of me bill was 11.89. The young girl asked if he would like to round up his purchase to an even 12 bucks and donate 11 cents to the Childrens Hospital. He said no. 11cents? Are you f ing kidding me? I was pissed. My bill was 19.42 so I asked the girl if she could round it up to an even 25 bucks. She smiled and said the last guy bothered you huh? I told her I was going to go kick his ass in the parking lot. Hey she was cute and I thought it sounded cool.

[burtybasset Retired Moderator Member of the Month May 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close burtybasset]

Watched the thing in its entirety. Thank you for sharing. Validated many of my views of society that I've conceived myself through life experience. Which of course most would find themselves on the other side of the argument with.

Glad you enjoyed it.

I have to say he has changed my views on a good many things. Or rather helped complete my view on things I wasn't fully able to yet articulate.


"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities". - Ayn Rand.

[closed224 Senior Member Member of the Month Dec 2014, Feb 2017 Find all posts View Profile Close closed224]

Taken in the bubble as presented I agree. 2 farmers living completely independently of each other. Responsible for only themselves and thier wife or child. This however is not even close to reality.

If markets were free in the 1800s then why did the markets crash? If they were free and doing as supposed to why did they lead to the great depression? If people are free to make thier own choices why should we want to kick thier ass for not rounding up? None of these discussions take into account the reality of the situation. For the same reasons communism, socialism, racism will fail so too does capitalism fail. Call it human nature if you will. I dont. I think greed, and avarice are learned behaviours. I believe human nature contains just as much kindness, compassion, love. It is where we put our emphasis that leads to all the shitty things. We allow the strongest, greediest, meanest to attain, retain power. Simply put we fear kindness, gentleness on a large scale. Living in fear will always lead to degenerates leading us. I hope some of you understand that the markets were never free. And the regulations brought in are designed to keep the majority from ever getting a piece of the larger pie. They are sold to us as helping us. Not true in the slightlest.

[not2big Senior Super ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close not2big]

If we want to live our lives independent of society, the formers’ stories ring true. However, if we want to live in a society, we need to contribute to the society’s overall well being. I.e. those who work hard and prosper should help those who work hard and do not prosper. However, those who shirk their duties to society, should receive some minor help from the prosperous so that the society can maintain its dignity and respect.

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

The point of the story is that we ourselves are responsible for what we do. Communism/socialism will never work because of this thing called human nature.

Human nature tells us that some will work hard, some not so hard and some barely at all. Some of those that work hard will share greatly, some will share a bit and some not at all. Tell me why they should share? They should share out of compassion for the guy who didn't really work hard? Why should compassion simply be a one way street? Why should the have nots scream about the greed of those who have? What do the have nots have to give in return?

We all have the capacity to add to society and each other. If you choose not to do so then then it's the risk you take and it is your choice, your responsibility and you should not scream about their greed but rather your own stupidity and laziness.

So... Socialism and Communism could never work because humans are naturally greedy, but Capitalism works because wealthy people are generous and not greedy? Can you see the irony in this? Compassion does not have to be a two way street. Not every interaction has to be transactional. In fact, I would say, to be truly compassionate, you must expect nothing in return. This is why Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. The have nots scream about what they don't have because the game has long since been rigged against them and it's time it changed. If all it took was hard work to be successful, most people would be successful. Some of the hardest workers I know are people who are in shitty situations and it took utter luck for them to get out, or the support of their community, or they are still in a fucked situation. And by the way, Capitalism kills millions of people through starvation, through the manipulation of resources, through imperialistic wars and by creating illegal markets (make something illegal, it's value increases exponentially and dealing with it becomes infinitely more dangerous e.g. drugs and drug money fuel gangs).

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

The collective is not more important than the individual and is actually just a collection of individuals anyway.

It seems funny talking about starvation and evil given all of the collectivist regimes that have murdered 10's if not 100's of millions of people over the 20th century.

The farmer in the story isn't responsible for the other farmer anyway. He has no claim to his property, nor is he entitled to his labour and given the "community" treatment the other farmer shared with him previously, he reaps what he sows unless the farmer makes the choice of his own free will to help him.

Personally I believe in forgiveness, but this is my own personal choice, not an enforcement by some collective. Not yet at least.

And capitalism didn't kill millions? It is by believing that the individual is more important than the collective that you can justify slavery and many other horrendous acts. There are countries around the world that have been crippled by American imperialism in the name of capital. You won't ever see it, because it doesn't happen next to you. But the child in the sweat shop producing your shoes for barely enough money to eat is a victim of capitalism. He will never be able to work hard enough to succeed. I know you will blame foreign governments for not being like America, or for being socialist as the reason for this. On that we will just have to disagree. And if you think the person who works 80 hours a week and still cant pay rent is not working hard enough, you're delusional.

[RedWilly Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close RedWilly]

So... Socialism and Communism could never work because humans are naturally greedy, but Capitalism works because wealthy people are generous and not greedy? Can you see the irony in this? Compassion does not have to be a two way street. Not every interaction has to be transactional. In fact, I would say, to be truly compassionate, you must expect nothing in return. This is why Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. The have nots scream about what they don't have because the game has long since been rigged against them and it's time it changed. If all it took was hard work to be successful, most people would be successful. Some of the hardest workers I know are people who are in shitty situations and it took utter luck for them to get out, or the support of their community, or they are still in a fucked situation. And by the way, Capitalism kills millions of people through starvation, through the manipulation of resources, through imperialistic wars and by creating illegal markets (make something illegal, it's value increases exponentially and dealing with it becomes infinitely more dangerous e.g. drugs and drug money fuel gangs).

This is gross misunderstanding. Capitalism is the least imperfect way to allow socioeconomic fluidity within a given set of people. Unfortunately, the system we have, in which government creates artificial barriers to entry thru regulations and policies creates cronyism and indeed favors the wealthy and powerful.

In spite of the cronyism, this is still the easiest time in human history to create massive wealth, especially in America.

Another idea usually glossed over, most likely due to its qualitative nature, is the standard of living we are able to enjoy. Even the poorest people in America would have a standard of living far beyond what anyone could have imagined 500 years ago. The bottom 20% have a standard of living better than kings and nobility back in the day.

Also, food surplus is a direct result of capitalism. The variety you enjoy is a direct result of free markets being able to substitute and choose what foods to enjoy.

So, while imperfect, I challenge you to find a better system to allow those at the bottom rung of the ladder to rise to the top...

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

Here's an example of human nature I ran into 2 hours ago. I went to Ace Hardware;they have signs posted all through the store. Round up and donate to St Judes Children Hospital . The man in front of me bill was 11.89. The young girl asked if he would like to round up his purchase to an even 12 bucks and donate 11 cents to the Childrens Hospital. He said no. 11cents? Are you f ing kidding me? I was pissed. My bill was 19.42 so I asked the girl if she could round it up to an even 25 bucks. She smiled and said the last guy bothered you huh? I told her I was going to go kick his ass in the parking lot. Hey she was cute and I thought it sounded cool.

Some people are assholes. You did kind of just prove my point though. I think it's great you donated, don't get me wrong. But in a capitalist system, you cannot rely on generosity. Some people will be generous for sure. But its not reliable.

Given that money is essentially the international token of resource that bypasses the bartering system through efficiency, it is important to consider what should happen to that money. We understand that on the whole, everyone should get enough resources to stay alive and to live a worthy life, in exchange for hard work that helps our society grow. But is it important that people have enough money to buy millions of golden jetskis? Of course not. No one needs that much money, and this is the great moral imperative of capitalism? People starve so DT can hire ten prostitutes to piss on him? Fuck that. I would rather make sure everyone is fed, housed, and healthy than hold some international dick measuring contest of "check out how much money I have", especially when corporations have so much money that they can buy policy and governments. If you would rather live in autocratic oligarchy, so be it, I'm sure it will come soon enough, but lets be honest and not pretend that capitalism isn't turning your society into economic feudalism. Socialism is simply the recognition of the obscurity of this wealth and that it would be much better served fuelling things like education over say, cocaine.

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

This is gross misunderstanding. Capitalism is the least imperfect way to allow socioeconomic fluidity within a given set of people. Unfortunately, the system we have, in which government creates artificial barriers to entry thru regulations and policies creates cronyism and indeed favors the wealthy and powerful.

In spite of the cronyism, this is still the easiest time in human history to create massive wealth, especially in America.

Another idea usually glossed over, most likely due to its qualitative nature, is the standard of living we are able to enjoy. Even the poorest people in America would have a standard of living far beyond what anyone could have imagined 500 years ago. The bottom 20% have a standard of living better than kings and nobility back in the day.

Also, food surplus is a direct result of capitalism. The variety you enjoy is a direct result of free markets being able to substitute and choose what foods to enjoy.

So, while imperfect, I challenge you to find a better system to allow those at the bottom rung of the ladder to rise to the top...

Can I just say, I would at least like some credit for responding to many different people at once. This is essay writing haha. Don't get we wrong, Capitalism is good at what it does, which is production. Capitalism is great at generating wealth. Even Karl Marx, author of such controversial books as Das Kapital, admired capitalism for what it was. But he said it was merely a step towards communism. Capitalism is the stage of economic management where you generate means of production and can develop lots of wealth. But the problem with it is that wealth will inevitably drain away from the poorest people and when this starts to happen, you should move to socialism.

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

So, while imperfect, I challenge you to find a better system to allow those at the bottom rung of the ladder to rise to the top...

Socialism. Because you can get an education without putting yourself into crippling debt. Additionally, when education institutions are not competing economically, the unfair advantage that wealthy children get born into of "my parents can just pay out the ass and I get to go to Harvard" is gone too, leaving everyone on an even playing field.

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

Also RedWilly, can you let me know what you think it is I misunderstood?