My (our) Problem with Obamacare!

[Hockey_NY Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hockey_NY]

This is a great country, even though Bush and now Obama have been a complete disaster in a lot of respects. Obama may be one of the biggest disappointments ever considering he could have came in after Bush and did what he wanted. We really needed hope and change and I feel bad for the folks who supported that and then received what they did. Obama ended up blaming Bush for his whole first tenure, increased our debt to more record levels and rolled out a disastrous healthcare plan which is nice in thought but completely flawed in reality. I never like anything that takes away any basic freedoms or choices such as keeping plans you might have or seeing certain doctors you like and this plan certainly takes a lot of that away for many people. There will still be many without insurance as well, so it is not a fix-all by any means.

But in regards to packing up and leaving? I think we have it pretty damn well in this country. Sure, quality of life may be better in an Iceland or Sweden and such, but those countries have much smaller and more sustainable populations. A lot of countries, even once thought of as healthy, are now suffering from greater obesity issue. That doesn't even enter the equation when I think of how good or bad the US is- That is a personal and societal issue.

The biggest issue with this country, IMO, is the true lack of competent politicians that are running things. Very sad and scary situation. You get the sense some of puppets or others are just inept. Not much quality there on either side in regards to the folks at the top. One of Obama's largest flaw? He always wanted to be the biggest guy in the room so he surrounded himself with idiots he owed out favors to or those well below him in intelligence. That creates what you have just seen with our healthcare roll out, which was embarrassing.

[anonymity Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close anonymity]

3 out of 4 of our closest circle of friends/family are small business owners (in other words, the heart of America middle class that Obama claims to champion).

We/They are all NOT hiring for at least the last 2yrs due to fears over the Obama care act. Most middle class small business owners in America are barely surviving right now so even the "threat" of increasing their overhead (which many of them are currently struggling meet) is just terrifying. In the last 2 years we have seen a huge increase in our insurance premiums simultaneously with raised business taxes, unavailable funds from banks, property equity is down, and living expenses are sky high!!! No kidding the economy is still in the dumpster, no jobs, higher taxes, increased gas
all equal NO revenue. How is this a remedy? Squeeze the life blood out of small business owners so that they add to the unemployment to become dependent? Maybe this is a future voters plan? You know, hookem, feedem, and they'll never vote against you. Trouble is, they never learn to believe in themselves and go after it. You create a vicious cycle where both sides need eachother. They can't feed themselves, and the government can't live without the high taxes needed to supply. Eventually it is the middle class small business guy that says "why am I being the sucker" and joins in the party. I'm not saying we don't have to come up with a solution, we clearly do. My mother grew up in horrible poverty and I sure as hell didn't grow up with much either, so I get it. I just don't think we need to put into motion a beast we can't ever turn around or stop. This is not the answer, we have to keep digging for the right answer so we don't jump from the pot into the fire.

[BigRooster Senior Member Member of the Month Apr 2018PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close BigRooster]

3 out of 4 of our closest circle of friends/family are small business owners (in other words, the heart of America middle class that Obama claims to champion).

We/They are all NOT hiring for at least the last 2yrs due to fears over the Obama care act. Most middle class small business owners in America are barely surviving right now so even the "threat" of increasing their overhead (which many of them are currently struggling meet) is just terrifying. In the last 2 years we have seen a huge increase in our insurance premiums simultaneously with raised business taxes, unavailable funds from banks, property equity is down, and living expenses are sky high!!! No kidding the economy is still in the dumpster, no jobs, higher taxes, increased gas
all equal NO revenue. How is this a remedy? Squeeze the life blood out of small business owners so that they add to the unemployment to become dependent? Maybe this is a future voters plan? You know, hookem, feedem, and they'll never vote against you. Trouble is, they never learn to believe in themselves and go after it. You create a vicious cycle where both sides need eachother. They can't feed themselves, and the government can't live without the high taxes needed to supply. Eventually it is the middle class small business guy that says "why am I being the sucker" and joins in the party. I'm not saying we don't have to come up with a solution, we clearly do. My mother grew up in horrible poverty and I sure as hell didn't grow up with much either, so I get it. I just don't think we need to put into motion a beast we can't ever turn around or stop. This is not the answer, we have to keep digging for the right answer so we don't jump from the pot into the fire.

Well said Anon..

This country has a president that says he is about growing business and bringing down the unemployment rate. Well the only jobs I see him create are government jobs. Who pays government salaries? The taxpayer. Government doesn't produce a thing. All it does is take or better yet steal.

[TPW Senior Member Member of the Month Oct 2013 Find all posts View Profile Close TPW]

For those so quick to trash the Canadian healthcare system (or any other country that provides its citizens with universal healthcare)...how does diminishing our system remedy yours?

[anonymity Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close anonymity]

For those so quick to trash the Canadian healthcare system (or any other country that provides its citizens with universal healthcare)...how does diminishing our system remedy yours?

Well holy crap TPW! You sure are right about that! I didn't mean to be offensive to my home land, I wasn't thinkin of it that way AT ALL!!!!! I actually say the exact same thing to my own family back home when we're all sitting around the table, kinda a consensus between us. I do apologize for offending you.

[Heweymaster Member Find all posts View Profile Close Heweymaster]

ANON, I like the points you raise. Good for you

[BigO AdministratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close BigO]

Canada's health care is light years better than ours. My wife is Canadian. I have seen her families care first hand. We should have been doing it like Canada years ago.

[somebodyelse Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close somebodyelse]

If there parents make too much money more than likely they have a decent paying job. Where their employer has offered insurance to them and their family. Not a parasite that sucks off of the system. Is there people who need to be on medicare? Yes there is. A friend of mine got popped in the eye with a softball. He went to the ER? Some lady was talking with a friend of hers in there. She said she was suffering from a headache all day. What did you take for it? Nothing that's why I came to the ER. They'll give me something. That is a leech. The price they are going to charge for the time and meds, which more than likely will be Tylenol. Will be more than what it would have cost for the to buy her own bottle of Tylenol.


You are DAMN right. There are a lot of jingoes in this country. We live in the greatest country on this planet. Whenever something goes wrong in the world. Who they call? The USA. Yet the still hate us. Arrogant? YES! Proud? Definitely! It's not a collective ignorance. It is a collective stupidity. A large percentage just don't want to wake up and see there country and freedoms taken away from them.

This is what I mean when...

When you're blinded by your ignorance about the ACTUAL nature of the Nation you throw around blanket statements like "they have good jobs"

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/th...-taker--states

PLEASE take a minute and educate your world views before you make a statement like this.

Watch that entire video to the end... take 5 minutes to at least see SOMETHING different than Fox News tells you.


I'm annoyed by the idea that you would assume someone should just take a Tylenol for a headache... do you know that woman's history of medical issues? Did she have a history of Brain Annuerisms or brain tumors? high blood pressure? Seizures? If she went to the ER, was the panic because of her history?

Again, americans throw around labels until it hits them. "Leech" why call someone a leech because they did something that didn't sound right to you, but was COMPLETELY rational to them given their life's trajectory.

[somebodyelse Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close somebodyelse]

This is a great country, even though Bush and now Obama have been a complete disaster in a lot of respects. Obama may be one of the biggest disappointments ever considering he could have came in after Bush and did what he wanted. We really needed hope and change and I feel bad for the folks who supported that and then received what they did. Obama ended up blaming Bush for his whole first tenure, increased our debt to more record levels and rolled out a disastrous healthcare plan which is nice in thought but completely flawed in reality. I never like anything that takes away any basic freedoms or choices such as keeping plans you might have or seeing certain doctors you like and this plan certainly takes a lot of that away for many people. There will still be many without insurance as well, so it is not a fix-all by any means.

But in regards to packing up and leaving? I think we have it pretty damn well in this country. Sure, quality of life may be better in an Iceland or Sweden and such, but those countries have much smaller and more sustainable populations. A lot of countries, even once thought of as healthy, are now suffering from greater obesity issue. That doesn't even enter the equation when I think of how good or bad the US is- That is a personal and societal issue.

The biggest issue with this country, IMO, is the true lack of competent politicians that are running things. Very sad and scary situation. You get the sense some of puppets or others are just inept. Not much quality there on either side in regards to the folks at the top. One of Obama's largest flaw? He always wanted to be the biggest guy in the room so he surrounded himself with idiots he owed out favors to or those well below him in intelligence. That creates what you have just seen with our healthcare roll out, which was embarrassing.

I'm with you 90% there hockey. I'm not at all happy with the Affordable Care Act, and Obama was a disappointment to me. He had the opportunity to fix a LOT more things, but this ACA is what he focused on. his intent was well-meaning but when he allowed the gutting of the public option, It made the ACA have to do acrobatic somoersaults on itself to even work... Everything had to tie to everything else in order for it to work, and now that the parts of the law that were required to make it work and make it affordable (which it will be given time) such as losing your minimum "In-case-shit-happens" level of insurance goes away for more comprehensive coverage for all people to allow the costs of those premiums to go down with more people buying them, it's getting to be a problem. You can't fix the law... there was going to be some negatives in order for the damn thing to work and the negatives are what you saw... people losing coverage.

I don't like the law, but only because it was just WAY too complicated and the negatives were going to piss a lot of people off... I think It can work we just got to get through the "bite" of the transition... If it doesn't get through then it'll just fall apart and we'll have ballooning health care costs again.


That said, Obama is actually the LOWEST spending president (per percentage a year increase) in the last 40 years.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/oba...ned-2012-05-22

The most fiscally irresponsible presidents have all been republicans. Those irresponsibilities are laid squarely at the Republican mantra... Lower Taxes and More miliary.

When you increase Military Spending, and reduce taxes on businesses, you're basically saying You bought a Bentley and decided to take a pay cut... How are you going to fix your deficit in your budget??? Increasing taxes on working americans and gutting public programs to help the citizens including education, environmental care, and Public Works programs, including Sewer and Water (i.e. some states going to privatized Infrastructure systems... which have been having lots of problems) Not to mention Demonize the Social Safety Nets for the americans by saying "These lazy chicago people have cadillacs and big houses and are on these systems so they don't need it anymore" (hint hint, Buzzword there is chicago, i.e. think Reagans "Welfare Queen" painted a picture of a "southside of chicago" woman... South Side of Chicago is predominantly black... Just put the pictures together folks!)

[somebodyelse Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close somebodyelse]

As an aside, to respond to Anon and a few other's ideas that "Welfare restricts initiative" Please read this.

http://thegrio.com/2013/06/07/why-wh...a-black-thing/


I should add the caveat that i don't think most of you think it a "black" thing, but I do question your source of information and whether or not it has it been tainted historically.

In the 2000’s it seemed like the racial/welfare narrative might change when the face of economic graft and criminality became Enron’s Ken Lay, Bernie Madoff, the housing crisis and the bank bailout. Even conservative white America began to wonder if these captains of industry that were really just pirates in disguise were a bigger problem than welfare cheats.


But it didn’t last; by the 2012 GOP primary we were back to Rick Santorum saying he didn’t want to give white money to black people and Newt Gingrich saying blacks should demand paychecks instead of food stamps. It doesn’t matter that food stamp rolls swelled with white people during the recession, blacks on welfare was a safer target. All of which brings us back to the WSJ/NBC poll.

And another.

We should not be surprised that many whites think welfare/ black laziness is the cause of poverty in the United States; politicians and elites have been selling that snake oil during every economic downturn for 100 years no matter what the facts are.

Way back in 1851 a northern writer satirically pointed out that many European indentured servants ran away from their masters too, and perhaps Cartwright’s “draeptomania” diagnosis wasn’t a black disease but a white one as well. That perhaps the larger issue was abusive working conditions and not mental illness. Nobody wanted to listen to him back then either, just like for today’s WSJ/NBC respondents blaming victims is much easier than blaming the system.

Draetomania being the made up disease by Cartwright to explain why slaves would run away from their "loving" masters. Their lives couldn't POSSIBLY be that bad, what with the beating, the chains, the constant rape of pre-teen girls and dismemberment.

[BigRooster Senior Member Member of the Month Apr 2018PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close BigRooster]

This is what I mean when...

When you're blinded by your ignorance about the ACTUAL nature of the Nation you throw around blanket statements like "they have good jobs"

Medican't - "Taker" States - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 10/10/13 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

PLEASE take a minute and educate your world views before you make a statement like this.

Watch that entire video to the end... take 5 minutes to at least see SOMETHING different than Fox News tells you.


I'm annoyed by the idea that you would assume someone should just take a Tylenol for a headache... do you know that woman's history of medical issues? Did she have a history of Brain Annuerisms or brain tumors? high blood pressure? Seizures? If she went to the ER, was the panic because of her history?

Again, americans throw around labels until it hits them. "Leech" why call someone a leech because they did something that didn't sound right to you, but was COMPLETELY rational to them given their life's trajectory.

The link you posted. When I seen The Daily Show. I didn't even waste my time. That is a comedy show not real news. Fox News isn't perfect but they report both sides better and more often than all the other Obama news I mean propaganda networks do.

The woman didn't make any effort to try and home remedy her pain. She said she was suffering all day. This time was early evening. She could have at least tried something to alleviate her pain.

As a taxpayer that is supporting all these people who feel that they are entitled to free everything. Who vote for a living. Expecting the government to take care of them. If my tax dollars are going to support leeches. I feel like I have every right to label whoever I want.

You keep throwing out "Americans". Are you an American? If not your opinions about our government doesn't mean a thing to me.

You are annoyed? I could care less. Have a good day I plan on it.

[minimax Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close minimax]

This thread was a depressing read; had about 10% intelligent discussion (I think the OP was a great start), and the rest were exaggerating bashings with very little hints of insight.

[anonymity Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close anonymity]

As an aside, to respond to Anon and a few other's ideas that "Welfare restricts initiative" Please read this.

Why white America thinks ?too much welfare? is a black thing | theGrio


I should add the caveat that i don't think most of you think it a "black" thing, but I do question your source of information and whether or not it has it been tainted historically.



And another.



Draetomania being the made up disease by Cartwright to explain why slaves would run away from their "loving" masters. Their lives couldn't POSSIBLY be that bad, what with the beating, the chains, the constant rape of pre-teen girls and dismemberment.

I'm only commenting because you mentioned my name and it sounds as though you are indicating that I said something about skin color which I most certainly DID NOT!!!!! In fact NOBODY has said anything like what you are trying to indicate. I think you are trying to have a confrontation about something you feel passionate about, but you are misplaced with your choice of people to do it with as we are not talking about skin color what so ever.

[somebodyelse Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close somebodyelse]

I should add the caveat that i don't think most of you think it a "black" thing, but I do question your source of information and whether or not it has it been tainted historically.

Guess you missed that disclaimer... It basically says "I don't think MOST PEOPLE HERE believe the "black" part of this, but the information being USED HERE has historical context!" That historical context is REAL, however you want to believe it's not.

Not being from the US, you are excused from your misgivings about this countries blighted history that is swept under the rug...

However, if you gave the opportunity to open your heart, instead of thinking someone was calling you something atrocious, to the actual nature of this great nation, the USA, and it's sordid past, you could see things happening that are a repeat of this nations past.

unfortunately, this topic is so charged because people have thrown around this subject as a "gotcha" and not as a SERIOUS look into how it's affected policy formation and implementation...

This is Rick Santorum...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dUqYnbS6m4


I know it's uncomfortable to see and it creates a negative feeling inside you because you feel like it doesn't apply to you because you've never been the one to do anything to anyone. The problem is, when you throw around these talking points, they have a REALLY deep history and just tossing them around isn't like throwing around weightless banter about the weather... these have deeply ingrained pieces of american bigotry in them and I just wish people would be more aware of that.

Me telling you these things is useless because being a brown person, my perspective is completely null and void because you've been trained to think brown people are melodramtic, lazy individuals who are inherently violent and dangerous.

Florida police accused of racial profiling after stopping man 258 times, charging him with trespassing at work - NY Daily News

I'm just saying, I hate having this conversation because as a man by the name of Tim Wise said, "Both sides of this conversation don't like having it. One because the person who feels marginalized feels like people will completely shut down when they hear what they have to say (which is happening right now), and the other side is The people who feel like they're being blamed for something they say, then they become upset because they feel like everything they say is going to be taken out of context or made into a racial statement."

I agree with that apprehension because it's so very true. The saddest part is there's no way to have a conversation between the two types because both tend to stop listening. That's what's happening now. I am actually a political moderate and ascribe to conservative ideals, fiscally. I agree with drug testing for government subsidies... I agree with lowering the pay out and increasing the cut off so that people on welfare are capable of working minimum wage jobs and the gap in coverage between minimum and living wage should be carried by the gov. Government should NOT support people for doing nothing, unless they're completely disabled mentally of physically.

that said, I don't agree with the way it's peddled by some in the political arena.


Either way, regardless of how many pieces of information I give to you all, you'll dismiss it because what you perceive are attacks on you PERSONALLY. I'm not attacking you personally!!

I'm only pointing out that these view points have HISTORICAL context...

[somebodyelse Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close somebodyelse]

The link you posted. When I seen The Daily Show. I didn't even waste my time. That is a comedy show not real news. Fox News isn't perfect but they report both sides better and more often than all the other Obama news I mean propaganda networks do.

The woman didn't make any effort to try and home remedy her pain. She said she was suffering all day. This time was early evening. She could have at least tried something to alleviate her pain.

As a taxpayer that is supporting all these people who feel that they are entitled to free everything. Who vote for a living. Expecting the government to take care of them. If my tax dollars are going to support leeches. I feel like I have every right to label whoever I want.

You keep throwing out "Americans". Are you an American? If not your opinions about our government doesn't mean a thing to me.

You are annoyed? I could care less. Have a good day I plan on it.

Well I wasn't really annoyed, I was just saddened by your bigotry.

That said, it's all good.

yes I am an American. Born and raised as I said earlier in this thread.

let me uhhhh disillusion you a little bit.

STUDY: Watching Fox News Makes You Less Informed Than Watching No News At All - Business Insider

Unfortunately, Fox News is an entertainment network, not REAL news... So sorry, you're watching a righ Wing propaganda network. And according to this study, people who watch The Daily Show with John Stewart are actually far more informed than Fox News watchers.

You really should open your mind and heart to the people of this nation and stop living so closed up. It's bad for you and the nation when you do this

I still think you're a great guy, just wish you'd open your mind a bit...

BTW, John Stewart didn't really "talk" much in that clip... he basically explained what happens at hospitals when the uninsured go for problems (the cost is passed on to paying customers and the costs rise for insurance holders and regular non-insured payers.)


I'm not mad at you and definitely wish you the best of days too