Rare but common?

[ColtAR-15 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ColtAR-15]

Im not just talking about 8 inchers.

I dont know how this got stuck on 8". I was talking about big when you factor in girth also. IE- 7X5.5. I consider that to be a big penis. Hell 6X 5.5 is a big penis. More vollume than mine. I am also primarily talking about members before stats. It seems like every other guy here has a 5.5" girth or more. That may not be the case in the real world but here it is quite common and im talking about before stats. Am I the only one that has this perception? I appreciate the feedback but why is it that 80% of the respondants to this thread are huge. Where is all the "average" members? This fact just reinforces this perception.

[Closed039 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Closed039]

This is a false analogy. You are assuming that the populations and their asociated motivations and attitudes to their penises are the same on LPSG and PE sites.

LPSG is a site designed for guys who are unusually large. It is also a "show-off site" - you only need browse for a short while to realise that members are far more willing to post pictures of themselves than on most PE forums, where by definition many members will have some sort of issue with their penis size.

In spite of the huge number of photos on LPSG in general - and not just in the thread in question - it is very rare to find a credible photo clearly showing AN 8" NBP. It is staggeringly rare to find a photo of a penis bigger than this and to my knowledge a credible photo of a 10" penis has never been posted.

? Please, try not to tell me what I may or may not be assuming. You either attempted to bypass my argument or you simply did not fully comprehend what I posted. I'm dealing, as you claim to be, with facts. All I requested is that Syphon be consistent with his logical reasoning. He claimed that the absence of evidence of x is reason to believe in the true absence of x. I asked if that reasoning was consistent when applied to claims of penile enlargement and all I got was a bunch of bullshit and skirting the issue. I hope this makes it easier for you to understand.

[closeed258 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close closeed258]

It is staggeringly rare to find a photo of a penis bigger than this and to my knowledge a credible photo of a 10" penis has never been posted.

http://img1.hidemyass.com/img/SE9hS.jpg&t


This is doublelongdaddy from matters of size.

[Ivor Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Ivor]

Hey guys....
I'm 14" long and 9" around. Yep.

Wow! That means you must be...blue or green, or something.

[thenewdude Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close thenewdude]

I dont know how this got stuck on 8". I was talking about big when you factor in girth also. IE- 7X5.5. I consider that to be a big penis. Hell 6X 5.5 is a big penis. More vollume than mine. I am also primarily talking about members before stats. It seems like every other guy here has a 5.5" girth or more. That may not be the case in the real world but here it is quite common and im talking about before stats. Am I the only one that has this perception? I appreciate the feedback but why is it that 80% of the respondants to this thread are huge. Where is all the "average" members? This fact just reinforces this perception.

All you have to do is look at the beginning/starting stats if any are supplied or ask. Some people may be lying or exaggerating but really I don't know nor care because people do lie. Each to his own. So whether or not someone believes my stats, don't affect me because if I am lying then I will have to live with that; and regardless what point is there to lie when I know that there are dudes (whether lying or not) here packing a monster and that some are lying just like I accept the fact that average male height is 5'9 to 5'11. Most are within that height and some are smaller and some are bigger (another fact of life).
Do I believe that many are lying? I don't know nor care again but ,yes, so that one might not feel smaller than the another just like two rich men comparing income (knowing that one may be lying to make himself look bigger in riches to impress) but neither will ever see that others bank statements. Fact of life.
So just go by the condom companies and let it be the current stats that encourage you to do PE. The gains.
Peace.

[hsarge Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close hsarge]

Rare but common. Is that a non-sequitur? How about an oxymoron.

[drabman Member Find all posts View Profile Close drabman]

? Please, try not to tell me what I may or may not be assuming. You either attempted to bypass my argument or you simply did not fully comprehend what I posted. I'm dealing, as you claim to be, with facts. All I requested is that Syphon be consistent with his logical reasoning. He claimed that the absence of evidence of x is reason to believe in the true absence of x. I asked if that reasoning was consistent when applied to claims of penile enlargement and all I got was a bunch of bullshit and skirting the issue. I hope this makes it easier for you to understand.

I did not attempt to bypass your argument, or fail to fully comprehend what you posted. I was giving reasons why your analogy was false. Perhaps you have failed to understand what I posted.

There is a difference between arriving at a conclusion that is unsupported by the available data when that data is plentiful and self-consistent and formulating a theory by logically filling in the gaps when that data is extremely scarce. If there is little available data, then it is also necessary to ask why that might be before dismissing a particular theory.

LPSG contains a great many pictures of erect penises, yet the number of apparently genuine pictures of 8" NBP penises is vanishingly small. If those who believe that 8" NBP penises are more common than the surveys suggest are right, then they are underepresented on LPSG. Given that LPSG is a site specifically created for those with large penises, the only way to explain this is to argue that for some reason men with 8"NBP penises are more reluctant to show their penises than smaller men. Unfortunately this directly contradicts one of the central arguments of those that dismiss the surveys - i.e that huge men are MORE confident about showing themselves - and it is therefore self-evidently illogical to use Argument From Ignorance (the absence of evidence construct) in this case.

By contrast with LPSG most PE sites have relatively few pictures posted by members. Now this could be taken as evidence (not proof) that PE doesn't work, since there has been no controlled study to demonstrate that it does. I happen to believe that it does, but I can't empirically or axiomatically prove it to a skeptic and therefore I wouldn't try.

On the other hand you could argue that since those practising PE produce relatively few pictures regardless of success or failure, PE-ers as a group tend not to post pictures. You then need to find logical reasons why before you conclude that the lack of pictures is evidence that PE doesn't work.

It is perfectly logical to argue that those on PE sites will tend to have issues about their penis size and would therefore be reluctant to post pictures of their original size. Therefore it is not possible to definitively conclude that the lack of pictures is evidence that PE doesn't work - Argument From Ignorance applies in this case.

Arguing that the lack of pictures of 8"NBP penises on LPSG is further evidence to support the conclusions of numerous surveys that such penises are very rare, is not a case of Argument From Ignorance; rather it is the case that those disputing that argument - those who claim that huge penises are more common than surveys have found, are victims of Bertrand Russell's "Celestial Teapot analogy".

In the same way that the burden of proof is not on those who dispute the unfalsifiable claim that an undetectable giant teapot is orbiting the Sun, the burden of proof is not on those who dispute the fact that 8" penises and longer occur with greater frequency than any survey has ever found.

[drabman Member Find all posts View Profile Close drabman]

http://img1.hidemyass.com/img/SE9hS.jpg&t


This is doublelongdaddy from matters of size.

There are those who have claimed that his pictures are photoshopped.

Here's a link, using a different photo of DLD.

http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/fake/

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

http://img1.hidemyass.com/img/SE9hS.jpg&t


This is doublelongdaddy from matters of size.

Awh crud, just when I was starting to like my silly 6x5.

Oh the shame, the shame ...

[drabman Member Find all posts View Profile Close drabman]

drabman, you may be smart but you're one hell of an arrogant person...

I don't accept that I am arrogant, simply because I respond forcefully to some of the pernicious myths that are consistently posted about penis size - largely due to the intense frustration of knowing that many men are being caused unnecessary anxiety by these myths. I have been subject to similar and worse treatment myself - i.e others have posted on other threads that my arguments are "BS" and so on and have belittled the points I made. I don't complain about it - I argue back. I don't recall any of the individuals who have attacked me here, including a moderator, pulling up those posters. The only difference appears to be that those accusing me of arrogance and the like disagree with me this time.

You're making people feel like shit who are particularly touchy to this subject...

Are you suggesting that I am adding to the penis size anxiety of members on this forum? I would dispute that completely. On the contrary, everything I have posted on this site has been posted with the benefit of such individuals in mind - I have been thanked more than once for doing this.

I would argue that it is you and all the others who consistently argue that the average penis size is larger than the research suggests and who insist that ridiculously huge penises actually exist, while producing no real evidence to support this - other than a procession of photoshopped pictures and anecdotes about women who claimed the surveys' average size is in reality small - who are adding to the anxiety of those who are already touchy about the subject.

[BigO AdministratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close BigO]

Drabman, i am not actually against your point just the way you are going abou saying what you are saying. i agree with most of what you have said. What I was speaking of was the way it looks when you multiquote any where from 3 to 6 or even more times in a a single post.
I dont think you even realize that many are feeling as if you are trying to shoot them down one at a time, maybe not your intent but it still appears that way to anyone but you. You want to address the mod, well it was I and I, Bigo said you were arrogant. I mean with your approach so go ahead and point it out. One of my jobs is to keep the peace and if you want to call people out as you have been then do so, but you wont do it many more times, at least not here.
You want to make points then make points. I have nothing against your views, I find many of them on point and itelligentlly made but I feel you could get the same point accross differently. I am beating a dead horse, But if multiple people are feeling as if your arrogant in your posts, well Im just saying!

[drabman Member Find all posts View Profile Close drabman]

I am just stating that we dont need any more threads on the subject...

While the size of the average penis remains controversial, it will continue to crop up as a topic of debate on forums that are concerned with penis size. It seems to me that the only way to prevent this is to introduce a rule banning such debates. Until such time as this is done, it seems perfectly reasonable to take part in such threads. If they personally bore you, ignore them - that is what I do with threads I find boring on forums I post in. If you feel that they are going nowhere, or are becoming abusive, or are otherwise contradicting forum rules, then as a moderator I assume you have the power to lock them if you so choose.

I would remind you that I did not start this thread and a number of others have also posted on both sides of the debate. To first ridicule me indirectly (I am the only one in this thread who referred to the surveys you mentioned in your initial post) and then to attack me specifically - i.e using personal insults such as "show-off" and making facetious remarks like "cunning linguist" - is totally uncalled for and seems more than a little hypocritical, coming from someone accusing me of arrogance.

I defy any member of this forum to find a single personal attack or insult I have directed at anyone in anything I have ever posted here. I concede I may have belittled the arguments of one or two posters in this thread, largely due to my frustration at the damage I believe they inadvertently inflict on those with penis size anxiety. This tactic of belittling fallacious arguments is commonplace in any debating forum, not least on internet forums, but if it is frowned upon at PE Gym then I can accept criticism for that - although how you can then justify describing my posts as "getting old" and "boring" is difficult to understand. Of course, I would expect you and others who have complained about me, to adopt the same attitude when posters on your side of a debate belittle the arguments of your opponents. I must say I have seen little previous evidence of this from those who have complained about me on this thread.

Your ability to constantly show off the fact that you are a cunning linguist is getting old, using big words and referring to all the facts is getting old and your use of the multi quote button is getting boring and appears down right challenging..

So let me get this straight. You believe I am clever with words and that annoys you. I use facts to support my arguments and that annoys you. Responding systematically to a sequence of separate points, by dealing with each one in turn, annoys you.

I dispute that I use especially long words and I am certainly not "showcasing my use of the english language". I write as I always do - if that is not welcomed here then so be it. It is certainly something no-one, least of all a moderator, has ever previously criticised me for in all the years I have particpated in online forums. Even if your criticism is true, there are others who make posts which are often difficult to decipher due to their use of language, yet I am not aware of you belittling or personally insulting them in the same way. Notwithstanding that point, I have to say that it seems a bizarre criticism from someone overseeing an internet forum, which by definition relies on written communication.

The only data that exists which casts any light whatsoever on the issue of penis size are the surveys I have referred to. The alternative to quoting these is to have a debate full of supposition and unsubstantiated assertions on both sides. Bearing in mind your distaste for such threads anyway, are you suggesting this would be an improvement? Again, I find this bizarre.

Using multiquote is something else I have never been criticised for on any other forum. Indeed I have never seen anyone criticised for using it. On the contrary, I have often seen posters on various forums asking how to use it.

When you are engaged in a prolonged exchange with a poster, or a number of separate posters, who are making many different points to support their argument, there are only three ways to respond that I can think of.

Either you respond to a complete post, or many different posts, all at once, in a block and refer to previous posts in your response without quoting said posts; or you make a separate post for each point you wish to answer; or you use multiquote. The first lacks clarity and makes it difficult for those who are lurking, or who do not get involved at the beginning of the discussion, to follow the path of the debate. The second seems excessively unwieldy. Under the circumstances multiquote seems the best option. I have looked for forum rules or guidelines that advise members about their use of the function, but I have yet to find any. If I have missed such a rule and have inadvertently broken it, then I apologise. If there isn't such a rule or a warning about multiquote, then it is completely unfair to criticise me for using it.

To say that to use it is "challenging" makes no sense. The whole point of an adversarial debate is to challenge the arguments made by your opponent - your opponent asserts something you believe to be false and you respond to the point, quoting it in order to make it clear which point you are disputing. I struggle to understand how you can use multiquote in an unchallenging way in this context, unless you are responding to someone who agrees with you.

...So however eloquently you would like to retort, I encourage you to do so...

...just do it so you are not showcasing your use of the English language...

I see. So you encourage me to debate freely, but only if I adopt a form of written English that you personally approve of, even though the prose style I use is not prohibited by any forum rules that I can find, has never been criticised by any other moderator or administrator and has never been an issue anywhere else.

...as the poster above me just pointed out you are beginning to come off as one arrogant son of a gun...

I don't believe I am, but it is something I will think about on forums I post on in future.

It does seem that those who have accused me of arrogance are those who happen to disagree with me. I have noticed that some of them seem to get extremely exercised when anyone disagrees with their assertions and unsubstantiated anecdotes concerning penis size, if other threads are anything to go by. The poster you refer to is a case in point. As I mentioned earlier, a few such individuals object even more forcefully than I have done - describing their opponents arguments as "BS" and so on - without attracting the criticism I seem to have done. Interestingly, Samurai and the NewGuy, who are on my side of the debate, don't seem to agree with the negative opinions of me, although of course I can't presume to definitively speak for them.

In some ways you are a case in point. You saw fit to post on a thread by criticising the thread itself, rather than criticising the points you disagreed with, or making any other substantive point relevant to the OP. Somewhat ironically, in most other forums I post on, moderators specifically warn posters against this sort of behaviour, advising them to report any threads they wish to bring to their attention instead and locking them if necessary. On top of that you made a veiled criticism of me personally. As I have already pointed out, I was the only individual who posted in the way you chose to mock in the condescending and belittling manner in which you did. I responded by pointing out that if you had an issue with the thread and/or anything I posted in it, instead of responding as you did, the decent response would have been to either ignore it, lock it, or sanction me - for example by issuing a ban. I believe I had every right to make this point.

Put me on the spot about banning you...

Come off it. I did nothing of the sort. I pointed out the various courses of action that seem to be the routine ways in which moderators behave when they object to a thread, or to a poster's behaviour elsewhere - one of which is to ban the culprit if necessary. In my experience it is usually considered as puerile and bad form when anyone, least of all a moderator, reacts to a thread that bores them, or that they personally dislike, by making a post attacking the thread itself and individuals posting in it, instead of using their power as a moderator in a responsible manner, or by making a sensible and relevant point.

and I will...

There's no need, since I will not be posting here again.

Of course I don't pretend to enjoy criticism or sanction, such as a ban, but I can accept it if that action is what the administrators or moderators feel is justified, they act in good faith and I am given the chance to defend myself. It's a different matter when moderators resort to belittling and insults, simply because they personally object to the substance of what I post, even when it breaks no forum rules and is entirely relevant to a thread. Attempting to dictate the prose style I can use, when they themselves describe me as "eloquent" and when even by their own admission there is nothing wrong with my syntax or grammar, simply compounds the problem.

Neither am I going to accept being threatened, when I have made a perfectly reasonable criticism of your behaviour. If you disagree with what I say, then fair enough, but respond in a sensible and decent manner. Don't make disingenuous statements, telling me to "respond by all means" and that I am welcome to state my case , while on the other hand dictating how I should express myself and issuing threats.

I won't pretend that I'm not a little disappointed at this outcome. I've enjoyed some of the debates - in my opinion the most interesting ones are those where others disagree , as it forces you to clarify your position, to think more analytically and to marshal your arguments more efficiently. Unfortunately not everyone seems to share this belief.

I hope some of those who know something of my posting history, realise I've always tried to act in good faith and that my principal concern has been for those of you suffering unnecessarily about your penis size and whose anxiety is exacerbated by the same old myths and dubious anecdotes being regurgitated time and time again.

*EDIT*

I did not see your latest post until I had submitted this. As I said I do not intend to post again, I will cheat and respond briefly to the points you made by way of this edit instead of making a new post.

If by attempting to dissect what I believe are fallacious and potentially damaging arguments in as forensic a manner as I can manage, others feel they are being shot down, then I am not sorry for that.

If people make wild assertions that could potentially cause others great distress and they can't stand their arguments up, they should expect to be shot down - we are not discussing something relatively innocuous, like sports or the media. As long as this "shooting down" is done without resorting to abuse, then I would argue it is a perfectly legitimate form of response.

Multiple people have not described me as arrogant - two or three individuals did. They were all on the opposite side of the debate, with the possible exception of yourself. A similar number supported me.

PE Gym is a great site in many ways - particularly in terms of the practical help, support and encouragement given to those actively PE-ing. However I have to say that it seems to me to have more of a problem with assertions and anecdotes about huge penises and so on, running wild and unchecked than some other PE sites do. Ironically, it seems to be more akin to LPSG in this regard, which has probably become that way due to it's large gay contingent, who fetishise and fantasise about large penises and who therefore have an emotional and sexual investment in convincing themselves that the myths are actually reality. Why it happens here is a mystery to me.

Thunders has devoted a lot of time to substantive, analytical discussions of penis size, in order to alleviate the anxieties of it's members. MoS has also done this to a lesser extent. For example, despite the questions concerning his own size, DLD has posted superb articles demolishing the myth of huge penises in porn.

[Banana Bender Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Banana Bender]

Drabman, I have enjoyed the rigour in your posts. In fact I find them quite inspiring - as probably do many of us with average size dicks.

I also appreciate your eloquence and incisiveness. I must say, that I also enjoy reading the opposing points of view as well, and the way they are expressed. Vive la difference.

This thread has been my first port of call the last couple of days.

[averageguy6 Member Find all posts View Profile Close averageguy6]

Thanks for the references. You are correct in that my observations are anecdotal. You are also correct in that my grammar may be poor. I admit that I am not paying attention to that when writing here. For that I apologize. As far as what is "large" you are exactly correct in that I did not define my terms. I suppose I meant something on the order of 8 inches or more. I apologize for leaving that out.

Sticking to the issue at hand... I can tell you that analysis of the scientific literature is something in which I am trained as I also hold a doctorate in molecular biology in addition to being a medical doctor and surgeon.

Now, in order to find the truth, you have to analyze each study in detail. For example, as one person already pointed out, a lack of any description of exact methodology of measurements, means you need to throw the study out.

You also have to watch how you interpret the study in light of your bias. Your writings suggest that you have a bias in your beliefs. That is not an attack on you at all. We all tend to have a bias. Mine is that there are in fact many men with large penises in the range of 8 inches. When I say many I mean say 5% of men.

I am coming to believe that you feel that penis length is distributed in a Bell curve shape. However, Im not sure that the evidence supports this.

I pulled up one of the abstracts you mentioned, but not the actual paper. I immediately identified at least two major problems that may directly speak to your apparent assumptions.

In the Italian study the subjects were very young...aged 17-19. These young men may have still be growing. I am not aware of any studies of the timeline of penis growth. If you have references for those please forward them. However, anecdotally, many men report penis growth after age 17. I have no reason not to believe them, so we have to at least consider the possibility.

More importantly, the authors note that the distribution was not regular. I have not seen the whole paper, but this implies that there may have been fat tails or other lumps in the distribution of penis length.

Thus, this study does not prove your point that "larger" penises are rare. In fact, it might show the opposite. Get the entire paper and read it. Then tell me what you learn. Im interested to learn.

In the mean time Im not sure why you would deny my observations. Honestly in my field I dont see penises anymore thank goodness. However, years ago as a medical student, those were two examples of very large penises that were fairly shocking at the time. I could measure them by comparing them to the length of the Foley catheters. In my case I had to put catheters into the bladders of those men, so it was more than a matter of assumption or seeing them across the room.

As I said, as far as length, my wife's experience as the type of doc who needs to examine the organ daily, generally supports your conclusion. She states that I was "average" based upon the flaccid penises that she examines. Since I am in the upper end of the range that these studies describe as normal, and my wife has specifically and spontaneously told me that Im now larger (oh yea!) but I was previously average in her description. These are all based upon her seeing flaccid organs of course. And, as you probably know, the studies indicate that there is no correlation between flaccid and erect, while there tends to be a correlation between hight and erect length (at least for the 17-19 year olds, and as I remember also in the study from the Spanish author..the Andropenis sponsored study).

I am only 5' 7" and 140 lbs. I am currently about 6/7/8 to 7 inches in BPFSL from the top AFTER a hanging session (Ive been hanging 7 weeks max weight 17.5 lbs). Today, before hanging it was more like 6.5 or even less. On the top but just to the side of the suspensory ligament its approaching 7.5 inches when pressed all the way to the bone there. MSEG is a little over 5.

Now in this measuring process I have found that there can be a lot of variability. When I say BP I mean really pressing the ruler in all the way, and I mean pulling as hard as I can and measuring to the tip of the glans. I wonder if a researcher did it if they would really try to pull this hard? Yes, erect would be the same if they pushed the ruler in very hard and measured to the tip of the glans.

So, according to these studies, especially for my diminutive height, I have a larger penis than average. I find this very hard to believe based upon my pre-marriage sex experiences. Whatever.

Anyway, Im sorry if I was rude to you. I just dont understand what point you are trying to make exactly. I do believe that many of the penises in porn are quite large. Others I agree are not that large.

I do have a question though about camera tricks. Some are quite obvious such as close up lenses that bend and magnify things. However, how would you fake a penis that requires two hands how hold it and then still has much more room to use after that. Yes, some women may have very small hands. However, many of the women are not that small.

Also when you mention peoples physical size...well people are in fact sometimes twice as large as average.

There are easily men that are twice as heavy as myself right...280 pounds? No, no one is 11 feet tall...but overall size, yes.

Anyway, please bury the hatchet. If we can agree to disagree that is fine with me. In any case, Im not even disagreeing with you that average is 5.5. Im only saying that three are plenty of very large penises on the planet. As I said, by that I mean about 8 inches and larger. Even if its only 5% of men, that is a very large number of penises.

peace.

[NP97 Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close NP97]

What you just wrote...

All he was saying is your posts aren't bad. You just don't need to seem so aggressive. Stating the info rather than forcing it on someone is enough.
Like BigO, I agree with what you're posting. Just try and be a little bit more nice in your posts. Wording and such.