How to Avoid the Dreaded "Friend Zone"

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

"when you come clean" ... I think we may be arguing because you think manipulation is by definition deceitful, and I don't. Good or bad.

[longerlastingnoob Senior Member Member of the Month Jan 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close longerlastingnoob]

"when you come clean" ... I think we may be arguing because you think manipulation is by definition deceitful, and I don't. Good or bad.

Deceitful yes. As I said, different from encouraging or influence, manipulation is using falsehoods, bravado, fabrications, covering up certain aspects and directing the person towards others It's exactly what manipulation is.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Getting someone to like you, picking up a girl or forging a relationship in the same way is manipulation, and not good.

There are romantic souls out there who think all you have to do is "be yourself" and that should be all you need.

But it's not. ALL typical romance, attraction, pickup, choose your poison, is manipulation

Like buying her roses isn't? Nine times out of ten it's deliberate to make her think you're more attractive. That may well be lovely and fair, and everybody's happy. It's not even deliberately poor. Most men buy their girlfriends something they hope is "romantic" for Valentine's day. Flowers or a meal out or more. It's NOT innocent, they don't buy every woman thy know the same gifts. It's felt that this is just what you do as a partner.

For those whom it isn't, they would buy gifts and be loving and romantic throughout the year. Feb 14 means nothing.

It might not be deliberately manipulative, it might sometimes be out of a sense of duty, sometimes begrudgingly, but even just doing the bare minimum to keep or relationship because "you're supposed to" is manipulation, be that deliberate or not. It's to make her feel a certain way about you. Hopefully.

I find this sort of manipulation far less palatable than chatting up some girl in a bar, because it's insincere. Not deceitful.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Deceitful yes. As I said, different from encouraging or influence, manipulation is using falsehoods, bravado, fabrications, covering up certain aspects and directing the person towards others It's exactly what manipulation is.

See, that's where we're arguing, that you think manipulation is by definition deceit. I don't. It's common and everywhere and a wild mixture of good and bad. It's a thing. If your intent is to deceive, then yes, it's bad, and everything you said about "coming clean" is right on. But only in the combination of manipulation AND deceit.

[longerlastingnoob Senior Member Member of the Month Jan 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close longerlastingnoob]

Your view that buying a girl flowers is manipulation is wrong, and telling a girl you love her all the examples you put forward, there not manipulation. I've already explained manipulation, it's deliberate, purposeful, someone intending a certain outcome from it.

Guys may buy flowers for their girlfriend just to get some that night. Maybe if sex isn't a regular thing and other efforts fail then this is a last resort attempt, not manipulation. If the guy iw constantly doing this, and similar things, which he doesn't actually care about and os only doing as a means to an end, then it's manipulation.

The sense of duty thing and keeping the relationship alive is a different story. If things are difficult and a person tries to fix a relationship, by buying flowers or showing affection, again if it's out of character, just doing it to stop fighting, or get sex, it's manipulation.

If it's a genuine attempt to fix it, to reconnect and strengthen the relationship, it's not manipulation. ( even if it's out of character for the guy to buy flowers or go for meals, some guys are just genuinely a bit dumb.)

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Your view that buying a girl flowers is manipulation is wrong, and telling a girl you love her all the examples you put forward, there not manipulation. I've already explained manipulation, it's deliberate, purposeful, someone intending a certain outcome from it.

I'm not saying buying flowers or telling her you love her is manipulation. If it's sincere. What I'm questioning is the integrity and sincerity of purpose and reason in all cases. I was just talking to my date earlier about my example, Valentines day, and she agreed on the "because you have to" thing. Which, whether reluctantly or frustratedly or not, is deliberate and purposeful, intending an outcome. The fact that that desired outcome could range from doing enough to not get dumped, all the way up to seeking sex is irrelevant.

Buying a gift randomly, with no pressure, wanting nothing more than a smile and and expecting nothing in return is wonderful of course, but how many people who do so on Valentine's day, "because they have to", act in this way also?

Guys may buy flowers for their girlfriend just to get some that night. Maybe if sex isn't a regular thing and other efforts fail then this is a last resort attempt, not manipulation.

It is. "If I do or say 'x' then hopefully 'y' will happen."
Seeking a result counts as attempted manipulation. It's the same thing. Successful or not.

[Frog Senior Member Member of the Month March 2017 Find all posts View Profile Close Frog]

I do nice things, because that is what I do. It doesn't matter if it's a stranger I will never see or someone I want to get to know. Random acts of kindness goes a long way. I think that is part of whats wrong with this country - lack of kindness!

The two of you have been bantering back and forth for days...My two cents is intent.

If you bring your girl flowers because you know it makes her happy - GOOD
" " hoping it will get you laid - BAD

If ones actions are based purely on self gratification - It's Manipulation

Example: Why do I post on the forum? I believe I'm making a difference...even just a little. Even if I only make one person laugh.

What do I gain? Happiness, entertainment and personal satisfaction! Not money, not fame, not dinner, not money, not flowers and not even sex! Just genuine enjoyment.

[longerlastingnoob Senior Member Member of the Month Jan 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close longerlastingnoob]

It is. "If I do or say 'x' then hopefully 'y' will happen."
Seeking a result counts as attempted manipulation. It's the same thing. Successful or not.

It is only if 'x' is doing or saying something that is untrue, a fabrication, or not genuine.

If 'x' is something that isn't those things then everything anyone does is manipulation.
I give someone a present, hoping they will like it, and make them happy. I'm manipulating them?
I tell someone I'm going through some difficulty, hoping they will talk with me and help me through it, I'm manipulating them? No.

If I lie about having difficulties and being unhappy to get someone to engage with me, that's manipulation.

[longerlastingnoob Senior Member Member of the Month Jan 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close longerlastingnoob]

My two cents is intent.

If you bring your girl flowers because you know it makes her happy - GOOD
" " hoping it will get you laid - BAD

If ones actions are based purely on self gratification - It's Manipulation

My point.

[BigO AdministratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close BigO]

I think it's just a matter of terminology.

I agree, typically manipulation is used in the negative sense. And intent absolutely matters. Most manipulation is done to change the other person's view, thoughts, or feelings using deception or misinformation. Usually to coincide with the manipulator's personal agenda, but with no actual positive purpose to the other. In dating, this could obviously be interpreted in many ways.

There is a positive manipulation, if deception is used solely for the benefit of the other. Rare, and often needless, but I digress.

The term I would use for the other stuff is "desired response". It's not being forced, just hoped for. Cheering someone up, or talking to someone, in hopes they talk back. A smile to spark a conversation.

Sure, there's some self benefit in it, but the intent is positive, the methods are genuine, and usually hoping for mutual benefit as well.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

It is only if 'x' is doing or saying something that is untrue, a fabrication, or not genuine.

Agreed, but not only then. It does seem to me that insincerity or deceit is the core definition of manipulation to you, which is ultimately I think, where we disagree. I'm not suggesting that that doesn't happen or that either is defensible, deceit less so, what I'm saying is that it doesn't have to be deceitful to seek a result that wasn't going to happen on its own, and that is something that we all do. Hopefully without deceit. There is a reason why deceit and manipulation are different words.

If 'x' is something that isn't those things then everything anyone does is manipulation.

Not everything, but yes, many, many things. Which is my point. It's a way bigger and more general thing. When you add deceit, or talent in persuasion, it starts to become bad. But manipulation itself is not a black and white good/bad thing, it's everywhere. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts. Again, the key thing is about the intent, not the method. Blaming the thing, which is a part of a huge amount of all communication, is like blaming science for the bomb.

My point is that in realising this you start to see the world differently, you're forced to seek reason and true intent behind the words. And this brings you closer to the people who deserve your time.

[longerlastingnoob Senior Member Member of the Month Jan 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close longerlastingnoob]

Deceit and insecurity isn't the core definition. I said earlier manipulation can happen without.

For example, you find out a the bf of a girl you like is cheating on her. You tell her so she will break up and go to you. Manipulation. No deceit, falsehoods, fabrications or anything else.

Same example, you genuinely care for her and tell her so she will not continue to stay with someone who will hurt her. Not manipulation.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Here's one we hear a LOT, and on here too,

what sort of man do women want? what sort of man should I be?

That's straight up attempted manipulation.

Might be a good thing. Might be an awful thing. But it being manipulation alone doesn't make it so.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Deceit and insecurity isn't the core definition. I said earlier manipulation can happen without.

For example, you find out a the bf of a girl you like is cheating on her. You tell her so she will break up and go to you. Manipulation. No deceit, falsehoods, fabrications or anything else.

Same example, you genuinely care for her and tell her so she will not continue to stay with someone who will hurt her. Not manipulation.

Not gonna argue with that. My point is not that everything is manipulation, but that far more than we give credit to is. Advertising? Leaving chocolate bars by the till n a supermarket? Manipulation.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

How the hell did I manipulate you into this argument (which I enjoy) anyway?