Ketogenic Diet

[Sean Jacobs Retired Moderator Member of the Month Dec 2012PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Sean Jacobs]

Hi All,

I’ve been following a primal/paleo low carb diet for several years with great success (except when I fall off the wagon and binge eat junk carbs for several weeks…which thankfully only happens once or twice a year). I’ve been doing a lot of research over the course of the last year to try to help my wife with her current medical conditions. Recently my research has led me to the ketogenic diet, and the many claims of amazing health benefits.

This seems like something that would be good for my wife, but I want to try it out for myself first. So about 5 days ago I decided to start the process of becoming keto adapted by eating very low carb (30 g per day), moderate protein (between 80 & 120 grams per day) and high fat (60-80% of my daily calories). The first couple of days I did have some headaches and felt a bit tired and moody (which is to be expected from everything I’ve read). For the last 2 days I have noticed that I have more energy, I feel very clear headed, and I am sleeping more deeply (but I am waking up earlier – so sleeping for less time).

I was wondering if anyone on this site has experience with a ketogenic diet.

[Zman007 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Zman007]

I have quite extensive experience on Ketogenic diets and putting others on them. It's a miserable experience.m full blown Ketosis will cause you to live your life in a mental fog, plus your breath will something fruity. The appetitie suppressing effects of Ketosis can be helpful.

also, anyone with renal issues should not attempt a Keto Diet, it can lead to Ketoacodosis and kill them.

Plain and simple, the human body and brain are not designed to function without glucose, to do so reduces our ability to function optimally. Sure, we can adapt to a degree, but our brains will not work optimally. In Ketosis our body undergos gluconeogenisis or the creation of new glucose from none glucose precursors just to keep us functioning, and when our brain is forced to utilize ketone bodies of energy it's not happy.

i no longer use or advise the use of Ketogenic diets for my clients as they are difficult to stick to, exacerbate binges, and in reality minimal true benefits over a calorie controlled "real" food diets. The claims of amazing health benefits are false, though are are some small benefits, nothing like what the general media claims.

May I ask what medical problems you are trying to aid through the use of diet for your wife?

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

Instead of all these different diets what so wrong with just eating a normal balanced diet? That's what nature tells us. Eat a little bit of everything, especially chocolate cake. Seriously, as we evolved as humans when did nature ever say to eat this or that? Does anything in nature restrict itself in eating? Does a lion not eat a zebra because it's high in fat and instead sticks to wilderbeasts because they have more fiber? I fail to see why moderation in all things with all food groups could be bad.

[theonering Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close theonering]

Instead of all these different diets what so wrong with just eating a normal balanced diet? That's what nature tells us. Eat a little bit of everything, especially chocolate cake. Seriously, as we evolved as humans when did nature ever say to eat this or that? Does anything in nature restrict itself in eating? Does a lion not eat a zebra because it's high in fat and instead sticks to wilderbeasts because they have more fiber? I fail to see why moderation in all things with all food groups could be bad.

Spoken like someone who doesn't truly grasp the biochemistry involved, and who parrots back what Men's Health say.

Have you thought that maybe some people can't eat a balanced diet? Diabetics shouldn't be eating much sugar, for example.

I eat paleo, however I do not restrict carbs but I have done so and got some good benefits off it. IMO, it's not worth it much because you're missing out on some nutritious and tasty veggies.

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

Having a few years of biochemistry in the various higher learning venues that I have attended, including many courses on nutrition as well as a bunch other stupid courses in the health science field done at the post graduate level you're right I don't understand, considering I was speaking in general terms and not referring to specific ailments that humans may have. Okay you're right. I'll go look for breakfast if I'm not too stupid to find it. Maybe some fried chicken embryos on a roll sounds nice!

[Sean Jacobs Retired Moderator Member of the Month Dec 2012PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Sean Jacobs]

also, anyone with renal issues should not attempt a Keto Diet, it can lead to Ketoacodosis and kill them.

I don't have any kidney issues. So that shouldn't be a problem.

Plain and simple, the human body and brain are not designed to function without glucose, to do so reduces our ability to function optimally. Sure, we can adapt to a degree, but our brains will not work optimally. In Ketosis our body undergos gluconeogenisis or the creation of new glucose from none glucose precursors just to keep us functioning, and when our brain is forced to utilize ketone bodies of energy it's not happy.

I understand that it can take anywhere from 3 weeks to 2 months for the body to fully adapt to utilizing ketone bodies instead of glycogen. Especially because, in today's world, humans are conditioned to use glycogen for fuel due to the enormous over abundance of carbohydrate rich foods available. However, I have read many testimonials (from people who have nothing to gain) regarding their positive results of following a ketogenic diet for extended periods of time (months and years).

i no longer use or advise the use of Ketogenic diets for my clients as they are difficult to stick to, exacerbate binges, and in reality minimal true benefits over a calorie controlled "real" food diets. The claims of amazing health benefits are false, though are are some small benefits, nothing like what the general media claims.

I agree that this may be a difficult plan to follow, however my personal experience (been researching health and fitness for almost 30 years) is that calorie restrictive diets are just as difficult to follow and often lead to binge eating (I'm speaking from personal experience as well as the experience of many fiends and family). I fully agree that "real food" is the way to go for any diet. I also agree that some of the benefits may be exaggerated...but that is the case with any diet plan, exercise plan, diet pill, etc.

May I ask what medical problems you are trying to aid through the use of diet for your wife?

She has several issues: Early onset menopause, hypothyroidism (brought on by Hashimoto's thyrodiditis), IBR, potential latent celiac disease, & adrenal fatigue. She is currently seeing a homiopathic doctor (actual MD) along with her primary care and endocrinologist.

May I ask for how long you were on a full ketogenic diet? Were you cycling carbs weekly or bi-weekly while on the diet? Or could you just give me a bit more information on your overall experience while on the keto diet?

[Sean Jacobs Retired Moderator Member of the Month Dec 2012PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Sean Jacobs]

I eat paleo, however I do not restrict carbs but I have done so and got some good benefits off it. IMO, it's not worth it much because you're missing out on some nutritious and tasty veggies.

I don't stop eating veggies. I just stick with lots of low carb veggies (I go with net carbs so "total carb - fibre") slathered in Ghee. The plan I am following is basically paleo with lower carbs.

[Sean Jacobs Retired Moderator Member of the Month Dec 2012PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Sean Jacobs]

Instead of all these different diets what so wrong with just eating a normal balanced diet? That's what nature tells us. Eat a little bit of everything, especially chocolate cake. Seriously, as we evolved as humans when did nature ever say to eat this or that? Does anything in nature restrict itself in eating? Does a lion not eat a zebra because it's high in fat and instead sticks to wilderbeasts because they have more fiber? I fail to see why moderation in all things with all food groups could be bad.

The issue I've found, personally, is that eating a balanced diet tends to lead me to eat too much unhealthy foods. At one point in our past nature greatly restricted what humans could and could not eat. For the first 1.9 million years humans were on this planet we had no choice but to eat very low carbohydrate plants on a seasonal basis only, along with what ever we could kill or scavenge. Today we have genetically altered, hyper-palatable, chemical laden, junk food everywhere we go. This is one of the main reasons we have had such a rise in many long term health issues over the past 50 years(obesity, heart disease, type 2 diabetes, Alzheimer's, etc). These foods are addictive and extremely hard to avoid.

A great animal example is this: A cat is build to eat meat, yet my house cat gladly eats meat flavored corn based food every day. If you make sh!t palatable enough people will eat it.

[MrB8 Senior Member Member of the Month Nov 2013 Find all posts View Profile Close MrB8]

It takes will power, yes, but you can eat healthy and balance your diet.

From what I read, you need to get about 40% of your calories from carbohydrates, 30% from protein, and 30% from fat, some say an even split is better, point is, the human body needs all of these macro groups to function properly.

Now, with exercise, and good eating habits - which build over time, you can be healthy, lose/gain/maintain weight and not deprive your body from anything it needs, it is sort of like a factory, it takes certain materials and treats them in different ways, combine some, split others and produces multiple outputs, so for the final product to be good, all the necessary materials/elements should be supplied in certain quantities.

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

You're strong enough to not eat the unhealthy food, if you so choose. But just think; even if you have some unhealthy food and kept it in moderation do you really think it will hurt? Why do were have this beautiful world and this beautiful thing called life so that when we go to a ball game we can eat a veggie sandwich and wash it down with a V8? Not me! I'll take the chilli dog with a cold beer and enjoy life. Now if I have a medical condition which prevents that okay I won't eat it. I have an issue which prevent me from doing it so I won't. Other than that, as the immortal poet once said; "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than die with the saints!" Besides dying in perfect health will really piss me off! Okay I'll go study now!

[Zman007 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Zman007]

Ok, this thread is going to devolve. Its belief vs science and a whole log of misinformation and grey inbetween.

I have taken through an extended Nutrition minor the same level of nutrition work, min MNT(Medical Nutrition Therapy) that registered dietitians do. I also work with clients every single day to make a living, and I'm quite successful. I've also lost and kept off a significant amount of weight, competed in natural bodybuilding shows, etc.

I have Keto dieted for extended periods of time, if I had to guess I would say my longest stretchs were 3-6 months. It is miserable. I have nothing to gain from telling you my experiences. As to those nice testimonials you read, remember, when you seek information you are going to find information that backs the claim you are looking for. You are more likely to find testimonials for Keto diets working for people as they will be the vocal minority.

Barring certain medical conditions, eating a balanced real food diet consisting of Fruits, Vegetables, Lean Meats, Whole Grains, Low Fat Dairy, Nuts, Seeds, and Legumes within the correct calorie levels for a persons goals will work for everyone and is as close to optimal as you can get.

Keto diets reduce your functionality and force your body to operate off less than optimal ketone bodies. Your brain will be in a fog. Your energy level will suffer. This is fact, anyone that tells you differently is lying. You may adapt to it, but that doesn't mean you aren't operating at less than 100%. And those testimonials did have something to gain, mutual validation of their choice.

Calorie controlled balanced diets are easier to stick to than calorie controlled keto diets and lead to better long term success as it is only a matter of quantity. Not an entirely different mode of eating. Long term success with Keto involves eating that way forever, and people don't. Simple truth, Keto is not a long term solution.

But, you already believe a Keto diet is the answer, unfortunately I'm not going to reinforce or validate your position because for general long term health and wellbeing, its just not true. Keto diets should be used for short to moderate term serious weight loss ventures for very serious people, not for general health, wellbeing, and long term maintenance.

And I cringed when I read the word "homiopathy". I know its frustrating living with a partner with chronic illnesses, and you will look for an answer anywhere you can. But, a Keto diet won't be one of them.

Also, you views on humans have been conditioned to use glucose for fuel is erroneous, its plain and simple the most efficient form of energy for us to consume and is the preferred source of energy for our bodies. Forcing our bodies to be inefficient rarely has tangible benefits. And when calorie controlled eating a carbohydrate rich diet has no negative effects. That is the simple truth, no research has every given us anything conclusive to the contrary.

[Sean Jacobs Retired Moderator Member of the Month Dec 2012PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Sean Jacobs]

From what I read, you need to get about 40% of your calories from carbohydrates, 30% from protein, and 30% from fat, some say an even split is better, point is, the human body needs all of these macro groups to function properly.

Actually, carbohydrates are a non-essential nutrient. You will not survive for long without protein or fat, but you can live perfectly well without carbohydrates. But, carbs are tasty.

Now, with exercise, and good eating habits - which build over time, you can be healthy, lose/gain/maintain weight and not deprive your body from anything it needs, it is sort of like a factory, it takes certain materials and treats them in different ways, combine some, split others and produces multiple outputs, so for the final product to be good, all the necessary materials/elements should be supplied in certain quantities.

It isn't the materials we need that worry me...it is all the materials our body doesn't need that causes the issues. And those materials are often the ones we crave the most.

I'm 45 years old and I've notices that it gets more difficult the older we get. My parents are in their 70's and very unhealthy. Much of this has to do with their poor eating habits over many years. My in-laws are in their 60's and their health is deteriorating for the same reasons, although they genuinely believe they eat a "healthy" diet. The problem is that too much of the conventional wisdom about what is and isn't healthy is simply wrong.

[Sean Jacobs Retired Moderator Member of the Month Dec 2012PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Sean Jacobs]

Zmann007 thank you very much for your input. I really do appreciate your educated feedback. I do not agree, nor do I disagree with what you are saying. I'm hearing a lot of conflicting information and I am going to try the diet for a few months and see how I feel. You may be completely right. I may feel horrible on this diet and go back to my paleo lifestyle. If I feel much better and gain any health benefits from the ketogenic diet I will stick with it. I realize that what works for one person may not work for another. There is no need for a thread about dietary choice devolve into a war of words or opinions (speaking of this thread in general - this is not directed at you Zmann007, you have stated your opinions very well and in a polite fashion.)

I'm just looking for feedback from anyone who has tried a ketogenic diet, positive or negative.

[TheGreatDivider Senior Member Member of the Month Dec 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close TheGreatDivider]

There's nothing magical about a ketogenic diet, aside from a mild diuretic effect. It's simply another form of caloric reduction. It works by simulating a fasting condition causing your body to use fat stores while releasing fight or flight chemicals... Small bursts of energy and frequent irritability and moodiness. Note: You get the same effect fasting for 24hrs too.

As far as the Paleolithic diet argument Paleo dieters and Crossfitters like to use, it's a nice romanticized image of the cavemen lifestyle that has no research behind it and leans pretty heavily on evolutionary comparisons that have little or nothing to do with people today. Ask a Paleo dieter anything about the era you're probably going to about "Grok".

I have a joke relating to this... What happens when you lock a bunch of fad dieters in a room with two cannibals? Only the cannibals eat a balanced diet.

[Sean Jacobs Retired Moderator Member of the Month Dec 2012PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Sean Jacobs]

You're strong enough to not eat the unhealthy food, if you so choose. But just think; even if you have some unhealthy food and kept it in moderation do you really think it will hurt? Why do were have this beautiful world and this beautiful thing called life so that when we go to a ball game we can eat a veggie sandwich and wash it down with a V8? Not me! I'll take the chilli dog with a cold beer and enjoy life. Now if I have a medical condition which prevents that okay I won't eat it. I have an issue which prevent me from doing it so I won't. Other than that, as the immortal poet once said; "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than die with the saints!" Besides dying in perfect health will really piss me off! Okay I'll go study now!

I hear what your saying. Here is some info on why this doesn't work for me personally. Back when I was 16 I started to pursue weight lifting and a "health diet" based on government guild lines and what I learned from reading body building magazines. At the same time I suffered with chronic depression for many years and was on medication which had many annoying side effects. I've struggled with fat gain, never a huge amount, but enough that it was uncomfortable for a large part of my life. When I discovered low carb paleo many people said the exact same things you said, yet I didn't listed and tried it anyway. It was one of the best choices I've ever made. The depression went away, heartburn went away, acne went away along with some other benefits (example: I never get canker sores any more, even when I bite my lip). I defied conventional diet/health and it greatly improved my life. I have fallen off the wagon from time to time, but this is because I am a bonafied sugar addict. The only way I can keep away from sugar is to completely remove all sweet tasting foods (even artificial sweetners) out of my life.

I am willing to sacrifice those tasty foods so that I feel better and have a happier healthier life. But it is just my personal choice, it isn't right for everyone.