Veganism all the way!

[Dr Nemo Senior Member Member of the Month May 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Nemo]

What is that distinction?

Minerals have a physical existence only.


Plants transcend minerals because they have that^ property but also possess life.


Animals transcend plants because they have both of those^ properties but are also capable of deliberate motion.


Humans transcend animals because they possess of those^ properties, but are also endowed with intellect. Which means that not only can they conceive, manipulate and relate concepts, but that they have free will.


And because they have intellects and free will, they are therefore part of the moral order.


The distinction between animals and humans is far more profound than any previous distinction between the lower orders of being.









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[Cavalier Retired Super Moderator Member of the Month Feb 2015PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Cavalier]

You make the farms near you sound like a cow hotel, I somehow doubt this is the case, however I can only really take you at your word.

Haha. I guess I probably made it sound that way. Nothing is perfect. These farmers are running a business. They don't name their cows or treat them like they are any kind of a pet. They are merely an object that is the source of their income. It's no different than any smart business man that operates any kind of equipment for their income. It's important to take care of, maintain, don't abuse and keep whatever it is that is generating the income in tip top shape.

A stressed and abused animal has a higher risk of illness and will not produce what ever it was intended for as well as a healthy stress free animal. Take a dairy cow for instance. If a farmer purchases a milking cow at an auction he knows that it's milk production probably will not be at 100% due to the stress of being transported to the auction and then to the farm as well the new environment it will be in. Once it has enough time to settle in it's milk production will come back up. If a cow is ill it's milk will be contaminated with bacteria and will need to be dumped. The milk is tested before it's loaded onto the tanker to be delivered to the dairy. If the contaminated milk from the sick cow happens to makes it into the main tank it will be picked up by the test and the entire batch from that day's milking will need to be dumped. A stressed out cow may not breed and in order for it to produce milk it needs to give birth.

These are just some of the examples of why a farmer needs to take good care of their herd or other animals. So can you understand why I think, and have seen, that the norm is to take good care of the animals?

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

Minerals have a physical existence only.


Plants transcend minerals because they have that^ property but also possess life.


Animals transcend plants because they have both of those^ properties but are also capable of deliberate motion.


Humans transcend animals because they possess of those^ properties, but are also endowed with intellect. Which means that not only can they conceive, manipulate and relate concepts, but that they have free will.


And because they have intellects and free will, they are therefore part of the moral order.


The distinction between animals and humans is far more profound than any previous distinction between the lower orders of being.
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I disagree that the ability to abstract or rationalise is a distinction from a creature that can move deliberately. Instead, I would suggest to you that deliberate motion is a consequence of intellect. Perhaps animals may not be able conceive intellectually to the same capacity as us, however they do have similar abilities. They say that dolphins have intelligence similar to our own, dogs have intelligence similar to that of the average seven year old human, and there was that gorilla that zookeepers taught sign language to that would communicate with them. These are forms of intellect. You have made these statements with certainty, however many of the statements you made are not certain. Free will is not a certain concept. Many people argue that free will is an illusion and are yet to be proven wrong. This seems to me like a hierarchy that has been produced with the specific intention of placing humans on a pedestal.

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

Funny we don't seem to eat the smart ones do we? Like apes, dolphins ( the mammal) but we do eat the dumb ones- cows! I'm fine with that.

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

Haha. I guess I probably made it sound that way. Nothing is perfect. These farmers are running a business. They don't name their cows or treat them like they are any kind of a pet. They are merely an object that is the source of their income. It's no different than any smart business man that operates any kind of equipment for their income. It's important to take care of, maintain, don't abuse and keep whatever it is that is generating the income in tip top shape.

A stressed and abused animal has a higher risk of illness and will not produce what ever it was intended for as well as a healthy stress free animal. Take a dairy cow for instance. If a farmer purchases a milking cow at an auction he knows that it's milk production probably will not be at 100% due to the stress of being transported to the auction and then to the farm as well the new environment it will be in. Once it has enough time to settle in it's milk production will come back up. If a cow is ill it's milk will be contaminated with bacteria and will need to be dumped. The milk is tested before it's loaded onto the tanker to be delivered to the dairy. If the contaminated milk from the sick cow happens to makes it into the main tank it will be picked up by the test and the entire batch from that day's milking will need to be dumped. A stressed out cow may not breed and in order for it to produce milk it needs to give birth.

These are just some of the examples of why a farmer needs to take good care of their herd or other animals. So can you understand why I think, and have seen, that the norm is to take good care of the animals?

I can see why you might think that. I would say there are forms of abuse that can happen without making the cattle ill. For example, dairy cows are perpetually impregnated and then have the calves taken away from them, which is distressing to the cattle.

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

Funny we don't seem to eat the smart ones do we? Like apes, dolphins ( the mammal) but we do eat the dumb ones- cows! I'm fine with that.

Pigs are smarter than dogs. Do you eat dog?

[Dr Nemo Senior Member Member of the Month May 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Nemo]

I disagree that the ability to abstract or rationalise is a distinction from a creature that can move deliberately. Instead, I would suggest to you that deliberate motion is a consequence of intellect.

Deliberate motion per se has nothing to do with intellect and its capacity for abstraction, judgement & reasoning. What makes you think it does?

Perhaps animals may not be able conceive intellectually to the same capacity as us, however they do have similar abilities.

The abilities animals have are not different from us in degree but in kind.

A dog or a gorilla or a dolphin no matter how seemingly able to figure thing out puzzles/tests, recognize things/people, evidence basic memory, and be seemingly communicative - none of these things are evidence of intellect.

And simply more OF them doesn't add up to an intellect. Just as more "sides" added to a chiliagon - even multiplied to infinity - doesn't make (and cannot even in principle make) it a circle.

They say that dolphins have intelligence similar to our own, dogs have intelligence similar to that of the average seven year old human, and there was that gorilla that zookeepers taught sign language to that would communicate with them. These are forms of intellect.

There's zero evidence that dolphins have intellects; same with dogs and gorillas, etc.

You have made these statements with certainty, however many of the statements you made are not certain. Free will is not a certain concept. Many people argue that free will is an illusion and are yet to be proven wrong.

Free will is indeed a most certain concept. When people argue otherwise they are actually proving themselves wrong in the very act of arguing otherwise. I'll explain if you like but I think you're probably smart enough to understand what I just said.

This seems to me like a hierarchy that has been produced with the specific intention of placing humans on a pedestal.

It's simply how things are. People who make the "arguments" that man and animal aren't distinct are parroting an ideology masquerading as pseudo-science.








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[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

No the Chinese do. I only eat stupid pigs; the smart ones are way too tough.

[proactive Senior MemberMember of the Month ? 2017 Find all posts View Profile Close proactive]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyoJUdagcys

[Injoker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Injoker]

Deliberate motion per se has nothing to do with intellect and its capacity for abstraction, judgement & reasoning. What makes you think it does?

For motion to be deliberate, it necessarily requires capacity for abstraction (i.e. the ability to perceive the environment external to it and move in relation to it). This is the same for judgement and reasoning. For example, a tiger needs a degree of abstraction to be able to perceive the jungle it's in, needs a degree of judgement to move at the right time to hunt, a degree of reasoning to choose to eat an animal that would fit into its diet over say, eating a bridge.

A dog or a gorilla or a dolphin no matter how seemingly able to figure thing out puzzles/tests, recognize things/people, evidence basic memory, and be seemingly communicative - none of these things are evidence of intellect.

What do you think intellect means? Because it is precisely evidence of intellect. To be dismissive of that, is to say that humans have no evidence of intellect, which is to destroy your own argument.

And simply more OF them doesn't add up to an intellect. Just as more "sides" added to a chiliagon - even multiplied to infinity - doesn't make (and cannot even in principle make) it a circle.

This analogy only makes sense if you don't understand intellect, or you simply ignore how certain behaviours can be a sign of intellect.

There's zero evidence that dolphins have intellects; same with dogs and gorillas, etc.

Certainly not true.

Free will is indeed a most certain concept. When people argue otherwise they are actually proving themselves wrong in the very act of arguing otherwise. I'll explain if you like but I think you're probably smart enough to understand what I just said.

Yes, I am smart enough to understand what you said, and you don't actually seem to understand the arguments of those who argue that free will is an illusion, and for you to be able to prove that it's not an illusion requires knowledge of the brain that simply isn't available. Therefore, it cannot, by definition, be certain.

It's simply how things are. People who make the "arguments" that man and animal aren't distinct are parroting an ideology masquerading as pseudo-science.
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It's interesting, because this is exactly how I feel about your entire argument.

[closed251 Senior Member Member of the Month Nov 2016 Find all posts View Profile Close closed251]

To try and move on from the arguments I thought we could look at some famous vegans

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[Dr Nemo Senior Member Member of the Month May 2018 Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Nemo]

This analogy only makes sense if you don't understand intellect, or you simply ignore how certain behaviours can be a sign of intellect.

You seemed to be confused about what the intellect is.

At the same time you seem to be quite sure of what you think it is.

Therefore you should have no trouble defining it for me. I'm out of pocket until Monday, but I do look forward to hearing this.













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[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

Aren't most of them dead?

[Ultimate Burrito Moderator Member of the Month Oct 2017PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Ultimate Burrito]

^^^ lmao

[closed251 Senior Member Member of the Month Nov 2016 Find all posts View Profile Close closed251]

Aren't most of them dead?

If you want I can post a lot of live ones??... veganism is amazing but can't cheat death!