Gaining Muscle Mass w/o Steriods

[thenewdude Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close thenewdude]

Naturally building muscle mass takes time and longer with high metabolisms or tightly stacked fibers. Keep in mind that even if you don't see a huge amount of gains in a certain time doesn't mean you are not gaining muscle mass but more tighter fibers. I will never get 17 inch guns or 46 inch chest but I can lift like one who has more. Fibers are fibers whether they are closer together (density) or farther about (bulky).

[Wildcatter Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Wildcatter]

Well, you dont need 5 times a week gym to get big, homie. You dont want to overtrain and your body needs rest and resources so that it can build mass, exercising muscle only wont get you bigger. The 2 most important things for you to gain mass is FOOD and REST. Exercising is only like 20 % of the whole process. I've been through various exercise routines in my lifetime, guys who wrote about going for a 2:1 carbs/ proteine ratio are right, guys who told you to cut down from your aerobic exercises are right as well.
You dont need 5 times a week gym, my advice for you is to do 3 times, 4 times the most. I can help you up with a very good 4 times a week routine if you'd like that. 2/1/2
One more thing that I would like to add is do your abs workout about every other day. Abs exercising is known for metabolism boost.

LOL WTF is this guy talking about? Seriously, he just pulled all of this out of his ass.

What are your goals? You said you want to get "bigger" but you also want a "lean build". To be honest, I've been lifting for 8 years, 4 seriously, and I still can't get bigger and leaner at the same time. You have to have your diet completely on point to do that, and at this point in the game I'd say you just don't know how your body responds to different diets.

Hit all the body parts once a week. Split them up however you like, just as long as you get them in once a week. I"d say go to the gym 5x a week max, your body needs rest.

You're not going to know how you body responds to a diet because everyone metabolizes things differently. Some guys can eat cheeseburgers all day and get cut, some guys eat chicken breast and have a hard time cutting weight. Just focus on eating "healthy", with a heavy emphasis on protein. The # will differentiate between who you talk too, but as a ecto who's 170 pounds with near 17 inch guns, if I didn't eat a g of protein per lb of bodyweight a day, I didn't gain.

Your diet will obviously depend on your goals. If you want to builk, eat more calories than you burn. If you're cutting, eat less. Not very complicated. If you're bulking and a smaller guy you can eat dirtier, if you're cutting eat healthier.

If you try and do both at the same time you're probably not going to go anywhere. It's hard.

Learn proper form on Squats and Deadlifts. They are the two lifts you must know.

[HealthyMeat Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close HealthyMeat]

It also depends on genetics and truly understanding your body and what works for you. I'm able to gain weight but maintain a lean athletic build, I don't like puffy muscles. Its a slow process of putting on weight but so worth it. As a teenager I was Bruce Lee ripped cause that was my idol, I'm still very cut and ripped but not that insane anymore, but more then the average gym rat One of the benefits of being a hard gainer, your one of the smallest in the gym but one of the strongest. I'm always the center of attention when I lift

[thenewdude Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close thenewdude]

There are different types of training. Some are body builders which although you are dealing with weights it is not the same as weight training. The comment about 4 times a week (consequitive) is correct. You want three days of rest (even most weight training books including the holy grail 'Gold Gym's' states the same).
Also, it is best to separate days according to muscle groups.
Lastly, concerning Bruce (yes, there is only one). Most of his strength training was not by pig iron but push-ups, pull-up, squats, and serious repetition, etc... Look at those competing in Ninja Warrior (even US), most are not in a gym with weights but get the same with high cut as Bruce. If you are looking for that kind of body and not serious mass then that is the route you should take.

[gingernuts Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gingernuts]

Hey guys, I've been searching around the forum, as well as the internet, looking for topics on gaining muscle mass without that infamous drug, Steroids. Sadly, I can't seem to find one detailed enough that's actually probably not totally BS.

So I've come to you all, and would like some input on what I'd need to do in order to look bigger and get stronger, without substance abuse. I will say, I KNOW what needs to be done; weight training, HIIT, Cross fit, etc, but it seems the people I've looked up, and claimed it was all natural gains, were phonies. I mean, it'd be great to work hard enough in 4 years and look like Terry Cruise lol.

I just need advice on the matter, what you all have done to get larger. Thanks!

I hang round a couple of forums where bodybuilders, powerlifters, olympic lifters, and strength trainers all congregate - some with steroids, some without. There's often much debate about which is best, and what routine works for what purpose etc. I've also read a couple of the big well-known texts on barbell training, and also dabbled in one of the main texts about anabolic steroids (to educate myself and see if they're worth taking. Never got round to it yet though). So that's my credentials.

First, do NOT do Crossfit. That is not what needs to be done. There is no set regimen of training, so once your body has adapted to a higher level of intensity than it is already used to, your progress will hit the world's biggest brick wall. (There is a whole debate about whether Crossfit should be referred to as "exercise" rather than "training" because it gets you active, but not planning and working towards a specific goal.)

The benefits and drawbacks of crossfit are not something I can go into in this one post, but suffice it to say that the elite crossfitters actively tell people they don't use crossfit's programming - they use their own - and the fact that anyone can become a certified crossfit trainer in a weekend is a very scary thing in terms of the blind leading the blind. Please stay away.

One thing that helped me focus on my own goal (get bigger and stronger) was learning the difference between strength training, powerlifting, olympic lifting, and bodybuilding. They're very different schools with very different purposes. Strength training gets you stronger, usually with barbells. Powerlifting usually features guys with copious amounts of muscle and bodyfat, going for ridiculous lifts with one rep. Oly lifting is, as you would guess, strict form and all of the lifts from the olympics. Bodybuilding usually features lighter weight than the other three, but more reps per set, and more volume overall to induce muscular hypertrophy (when the muscle recognises it's been put under stress, so rebuilds itself to be bigger and stronger). Bodybuilders usually end up the most lean and muscular - yet often the weakest - because that is their goal, whereas the other three schools focus on the actual lifting aspect - so don't mind if they have a little (or a lot) extra fat, and stronger but (potentially) smaller muscles.

That said, you never see a skinny guy deadlifting 700lbs. They're always jacked. Strength = size, it's just not always the most efficient way to gain size fast.

In terms of gaining muscle mass, you won't look like terry crews either lol. Unfortunately, because he is a tank - and seems like a really cool guy too. But everyone has a finite amount of muscle mass that they can gain without steroid use - you'll see it referred to as their "natty limit" or "natty potential" (natty=natural). Once bodybuilders reach it after years of dedicated training and diet, some choose to hop on the gains train with roids to surpass it. Search google images for "natural vs steroids" and you'll see comparison pictures of competition bodybuilders before and after. Even in the before picture, they had excellent genetics and years upon years of training and proper diet under their belts.


So, yes you want to do weight training and you can incorporate HIIT if you want (because it's a great form of cardio, and encourages an elevation in testosterone/growth hormone levels - just as weight training does).

What routine do you follow in your training? There are two schools of thought here:
1) Build a strength base, then switch to a hypertrophy regimen when you've got the strength to handle the volume.
2) Hop straight on the hypertrophy route, why waste time building a strength base that won't get you sikk gainz.

My thoughts on this: Research has shown that in untrained noobs, ANY routine will produce a muscular adaptation. Therefore, why not get as strong as you can initially whilst your period of noob gains is in effect, so you'll also get more muscular, then when you have that solid strength base get on a hypertrophy program.

Rep ranges also make a difference in getting you to your goals. If your sets contain very low reps: 1-4ish, you'll build strength FAST but your muscles won't be primed for hypertrophy. 5-7 reps is good for strength and a little hypertrophy. 8-10 is hypertrophy central, with less strength gains. 10+, if you ask me, is pointless. It's more for endurance and cardio purposes. Incidentally this is why crossfit, with its super high (borderline dangerous) rep ranges, is arguably exercise.

This is why you'll see strength programs advocate 5 reps per set, and hypertrophy programs closer to 10. Mixed programs will have you doing the big compound lifts (ones that work multiple muscle groups like squat, deadlift, press, bench) with 5 reps, and the isolation lifts (that target one specific muscle group) with 8-10 reps.

I did hypertrophy rep ranges in university, using machines (eww! I've since learned that barbells are the way forward), and my mates/girls commented on my arms and shoulders after about 3 months. I could see the difference pretty clearly.

I've started from scratch twice with strength rep ranges, and both times I've still built muscle. Not as quickly as hypertrophy, but still pretty decently. Plus I got a lot stronger and felt better by training for my physical health, rather than my appearance.

I have a similar goal to you, so here's what I'd suggest doing...

1) Start on a strength program
--look at Starting Strength, Stronglifts, Reg Park's 5x5, all designed for total noobs.
--SS is 3x5 and doesn't have much in the way of upper body.
--SL is 5x5, I prefer the higher volume, and it has a bit more focus on upper body.
--Reg Park's is what Arnie started on. Obviously later on he was on steroids so don't expect the same results haha.

I do StrongLifts because it has a great website with all the info for free, and an awesome free phone app that you can use to track your workouts.

2) Follow it TO THE LETTER and continue it until you stall - which should be more than at least 3-6 months into it.
--In this time, you won't build as much mass as on a hypertrophy program, but you'll still build a decent deal, and your strength will SKYROCKET.
--Don't go adding in extra exercises - it's easy at first, but when you're adding weight EVERY session, your body will need all its resources for the ones in the program!
--Don't skip workout days. Your body needs a certain amount of time to recover - no more, and certainly no less. Recovery = growth. Train again too soon and your body hasn't grown from last session. Train again too late and you're not utilising your growth time efficiently.

3) When you've stalled on your lifts/have a good strength base/have "painted your canvas in broad brush strokes" (i.e. "have some muscle in order to know where your weak spots are..." as opposed to your whole body being one giant weak spot lol), switch to a more hypertrophy based routine.
-Madcow, Texas Method, Push Pull Legs are all frequently mentioned as intermediate routines that will bring forth many gains.

4) All throughout this time, KEEP YOUR DIET ON POINT! You can't build muscle if you don't eat more calories per day than you expend.
-- for a great free calorie calculator written by one of the nicest guys in the business, google "scooby calorie calculator" and use it to work out your daily caloric needs. You should be aiming to gain 0.5lb-1lb per week on the scales. Anything more will definitely be gained as fat.
-- How much daily protein you need: the "1g/lb of body mass" is bull, way too much. Try 1g/kg of body mass instead.
-- apps that track your calories and have nearly every type of food ready-entered: myfitnesspal, fatsecret.
-- I can't stress enough that getting big is 40% training, 60% diet. Please don't underestimate it!

Finally, supplements:
I don't advocate taking all the crap pushed by mens fitness magazines. Most of it is not clinically proven and has almost zero effect - hence why you can buy it over the counter, and don't need a prescription for it. A doctor friend of mine once said "It's called alternative medicine because it is the alternative to the medically proven advice, which suggests it's probably wrong." That definitely applies to supps!

Ones I'd take:
Creatine. Store more water in your muscles and have more energy with which to lift. DRINK PLENTY OF WATER THROUGH THE DAY IF TAKING THIS, OR SACRIFICE YOUR KIDNEYS TO THE CREATINE GODS.
Glutamine. Helps in muscle recovery, meaning you can train again sooner rather than later.
Vitamin D3. In England at least, because we don't know what the sun is, we're mostly vitD3 deficient. It helps boost the immune system and testosterone.
Fish Oil. Good for brain function and other stuff I can't remember.
Zinc&Magnesium (sometimes sold for megabucks as ZMA, with Vitamin B) - again good for testosterone, men's brains, bones etc. Taken last thing at night. Don't be surprised if you get super vivid dreams with this!
Glucosamine Sulphate. Helps keep joints/tendons nice and lubricated, which is important when you're stressing them with heavy weights.
Protein powder. This one doesn't need explaining, I hope!

All the others are not worth the cost. Caffeine obviously is worth it. You won't need a multivitamin if your diet is balanced enough, otherwise you might.



So, in summary:
1) Learn how to use barbells
2) Train with them in the 5x5 setsxreps method
3) When you've got some muscle, switch to a hypertrophy program
4) Eat right, and at a small caloric surplus to your requirements (200-400/day)
5) Don't expect significant results inside of say, 12 weeks
6) Don't expect to look like Terry Crews without years and years of dedicated training.



Hope that helps!

[C.G Member Find all posts View Profile Close C.G]

Here is some info about the Macronutrients ratios :
Bodybuilding.com - 3 Keys To Dialing In Your Macronutrient Ratios

HIIT has not much to do with building muscle mass.
High-intensity interval training - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, the percentage was random, no scientifical proof behind my statement, it was just a little bit of logic, if you allow me.
Why would he take a 3 day routine and break it into a 5 day routine? I dont get your point, imo its a waste of time. A 2 days split workout will be his best choice.
Abdominal muscles contain 4 muscle groups, how can you say that they are not large enough. Without your abs you'd be having troubles with keeping your organs inside, not to mention that it links up the lower with the upper part of the body. How could you tell that they are not important or large?

[C.G Member Find all posts View Profile Close C.G]

After 8 years of bodybuilding your only advice is eat more calories than you spend, are you even able to detail?

[gingernuts Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gingernuts]

HIIT has not much to do with building muscle mass.

I don't want to overload OP who really should be picking one of the tried and tested beginner programs and running with it for at least 3 months to get the hang of the exercises and how their body responds to the program, BUT...

I have to disagree about HIIT (even though I don't do any myself lol).
Look at the difference in body types between a marathon runner and a sprinter. Literally google "marathon runner vs sprinter"

And a bit of writing to back it up (with references to medical journals in the article):
Bodybuilding.com - HIIT Can Get You Huge, Especially If You Are A Meathead In Need Of Cardio
"It's all backed up by plenty of research, too. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research published recent work showing that HIIT can actually increase testosterone levels and GLUT4 concentration."

HIIT alone won't get you big and strong, nor is it the most efficient way to do it - I agree with you on that

[gingernuts Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gingernuts]

Oh! And last post before I go and do something productive lol...

If you want to see what kind of body can be achieved without steroids, you really have to go back to the time before steroids were on the market. Search "Eugen Sandow" for pictures of old timey dudes with ripped bodies haha.

Bear in mind that back then a big chest wasn't in fashion, so they didn't train it as much. HOWEVER, they *did* train constantly, ate big, and pretty much dedicated their entire beings to training for YEARS before those photos were taken and they became national marvels - something that none of us can do with our busy lives. Just something to bear in mind

[HealthyMeat Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close HealthyMeat]

I hang round a couple of forums where bodybuilders, powerlifters, olympic lifters, and strength trainers all congregate - some with steroids, some without. There's often much debate about which is best, and what routine works for what purpose etc. I've also read a couple of the big well-known texts on barbell training, and also dabbled in one of the main texts about anabolic steroids (to educate myself and see if they're worth taking. Never got round to it yet though). So that's my credentials.

First, do NOT do Crossfit. That is not what needs to be done. There is no set regimen of training, so once your body has adapted to a higher level of intensity than it is already used to, your progress will hit the world's biggest brick wall. (There is a whole debate about whether Crossfit should be referred to as "exercise" rather than "training" because it gets you active, but not planning and working towards a specific goal.)

The benefits and drawbacks of crossfit are not something I can go into in this one post, but suffice it to say that the elite crossfitters actively tell people they don't use crossfit's programming - they use their own - and the fact that anyone can become a certified crossfit trainer in a weekend is a very scary thing in terms of the blind leading the blind. Please stay away.

One thing that helped me focus on my own goal (get bigger and stronger) was learning the difference between strength training, powerlifting, olympic lifting, and bodybuilding. They're very different schools with very different purposes. Strength training gets you stronger, usually with barbells. Powerlifting usually features guys with copious amounts of muscle and bodyfat, going for ridiculous lifts with one rep. Oly lifting is, as you would guess, strict form and all of the lifts from the olympics. Bodybuilding usually features lighter weight than the other three, but more reps per set, and more volume overall to induce muscular hypertrophy (when the muscle recognises it's been put under stress, so rebuilds itself to be bigger and stronger). Bodybuilders usually end up the most lean and muscular - yet often the weakest - because that is their goal, whereas the other three schools focus on the actual lifting aspect - so don't mind if they have a little (or a lot) extra fat, and stronger but (potentially) smaller muscles.

That said, you never see a skinny guy deadlifting 700lbs. They're always jacked. Strength = size, it's just not always the most efficient way to gain size fast.

In terms of gaining muscle mass, you won't look like terry crews either lol. Unfortunately, because he is a tank - and seems like a really cool guy too. But everyone has a finite amount of muscle mass that they can gain without steroid use - you'll see it referred to as their "natty limit" or "natty potential" (natty=natural). Once bodybuilders reach it after years of dedicated training and diet, some choose to hop on the gains train with roids to surpass it. Search google images for "natural vs steroids" and you'll see comparison pictures of competition bodybuilders before and after. Even in the before picture, they had excellent genetics and years upon years of training and proper diet under their belts.


So, yes you want to do weight training and you can incorporate HIIT if you want (because it's a great form of cardio, and encourages an elevation in testosterone/growth hormone levels - just as weight training does).

What routine do you follow in your training? There are two schools of thought here:
1) Build a strength base, then switch to a hypertrophy regimen when you've got the strength to handle the volume.
2) Hop straight on the hypertrophy route, why waste time building a strength base that won't get you sikk gainz.

My thoughts on this: Research has shown that in untrained noobs, ANY routine will produce a muscular adaptation. Therefore, why not get as strong as you can initially whilst your period of noob gains is in effect, so you'll also get more muscular, then when you have that solid strength base get on a hypertrophy program.

Rep ranges also make a difference in getting you to your goals. If your sets contain very low reps: 1-4ish, you'll build strength FAST but your muscles won't be primed for hypertrophy. 5-7 reps is good for strength and a little hypertrophy. 8-10 is hypertrophy central, with less strength gains. 10+, if you ask me, is pointless. It's more for endurance and cardio purposes. Incidentally this is why crossfit, with its super high (borderline dangerous) rep ranges, is arguably exercise.

This is why you'll see strength programs advocate 5 reps per set, and hypertrophy programs closer to 10. Mixed programs will have you doing the big compound lifts (ones that work multiple muscle groups like squat, deadlift, press, bench) with 5 reps, and the isolation lifts (that target one specific muscle group) with 8-10 reps.

I did hypertrophy rep ranges in university, using machines (eww! I've since learned that barbells are the way forward), and my mates/girls commented on my arms and shoulders after about 3 months. I could see the difference pretty clearly.

I've started from scratch twice with strength rep ranges, and both times I've still built muscle. Not as quickly as hypertrophy, but still pretty decently. Plus I got a lot stronger and felt better by training for my physical health, rather than my appearance.

I have a similar goal to you, so here's what I'd suggest doing...

1) Start on a strength program
--look at Starting Strength, Stronglifts, Reg Park's 5x5, all designed for total noobs.
--SS is 3x5 and doesn't have much in the way of upper body.
--SL is 5x5, I prefer the higher volume, and it has a bit more focus on upper body.
--Reg Park's is what Arnie started on. Obviously later on he was on steroids so don't expect the same results haha.

I do StrongLifts because it has a great website with all the info for free, and an awesome free phone app that you can use to track your workouts.

2) Follow it TO THE LETTER and continue it until you stall - which should be more than at least 3-6 months into it.
--In this time, you won't build as much mass as on a hypertrophy program, but you'll still build a decent deal, and your strength will SKYROCKET.
--Don't go adding in extra exercises - it's easy at first, but when you're adding weight EVERY session, your body will need all its resources for the ones in the program!
--Don't skip workout days. Your body needs a certain amount of time to recover - no more, and certainly no less. Recovery = growth. Train again too soon and your body hasn't grown from last session. Train again too late and you're not utilising your growth time efficiently.

3) When you've stalled on your lifts/have a good strength base/have "painted your canvas in broad brush strokes" (i.e. "have some muscle in order to know where your weak spots are..." as opposed to your whole body being one giant weak spot lol), switch to a more hypertrophy based routine.
-Madcow, Texas Method, Push Pull Legs are all frequently mentioned as intermediate routines that will bring forth many gains.

4) All throughout this time, KEEP YOUR DIET ON POINT! You can't build muscle if you don't eat more calories per day than you expend.
-- for a great free calorie calculator written by one of the nicest guys in the business, google "scooby calorie calculator" and use it to work out your daily caloric needs. You should be aiming to gain 0.5lb-1lb per week on the scales. Anything more will definitely be gained as fat.
-- How much daily protein you need: the "1g/lb of body mass" is bull, way too much. Try 1g/kg of body mass instead.
-- apps that track your calories and have nearly every type of food ready-entered: myfitnesspal, fatsecret.
-- I can't stress enough that getting big is 40% training, 60% diet. Please don't underestimate it!

Finally, supplements:
I don't advocate taking all the crap pushed by mens fitness magazines. Most of it is not clinically proven and has almost zero effect - hence why you can buy it over the counter, and don't need a prescription for it. A doctor friend of mine once said "It's called alternative medicine because it is the alternative to the medically proven advice, which suggests it's probably wrong." That definitely applies to supps!

Ones I'd take:
Creatine. Store more water in your muscles and have more energy with which to lift. DRINK PLENTY OF WATER THROUGH THE DAY IF TAKING THIS, OR SACRIFICE YOUR KIDNEYS TO THE CREATINE GODS.
Glutamine. Helps in muscle recovery, meaning you can train again sooner rather than later.
Vitamin D3. In England at least, because we don't know what the sun is, we're mostly vitD3 deficient. It helps boost the immune system and testosterone.
Fish Oil. Good for brain function and other stuff I can't remember.
Zinc&Magnesium (sometimes sold for megabucks as ZMA, with Vitamin B) - again good for testosterone, men's brains, bones etc. Taken last thing at night. Don't be surprised if you get super vivid dreams with this!
Glucosamine Sulphate. Helps keep joints/tendons nice and lubricated, which is important when you're stressing them with heavy weights.
Protein powder. This one doesn't need explaining, I hope!

All the others are not worth the cost. Caffeine obviously is worth it. You won't need a multivitamin if your diet is balanced enough, otherwise you might.



So, in summary:
1) Learn how to use barbells
2) Train with them in the 5x5 setsxreps method
3) When you've got some muscle, switch to a hypertrophy program
4) Eat right, and at a small caloric surplus to your requirements (200-400/day)
5) Don't expect significant results inside of say, 12 weeks
6) Don't expect to look like Terry Crews without years and years of dedicated training.



Hope that helps!

Wasn't gonna read it all but that was a awesome amount of good information, couldn't of asked for a more detailed post. Everything you said is pretty spot on and valid IMO. OP, read and heed!

[Jaw Breaker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jaw Breaker]

There are different types of training. Some are body builders which although you are dealing with weights it is not the same as weight training.

I will never understand comments like this or where it comes from. Bodybuilding has as much to do with weight training as any other form of weight training. The only thing that separates bodybuilding from other types of training is volume/intensity and rep ranges. Bodybuilders focus on hypertrophy (muscle size) ... and strength/power come along for the ride regardless of the type of training you do. There are endurance ranges for conditioning your stabilizer muscles to prime your body for larger movements, there's a hypertrophy range for building the most muscle, there is a strength range for getting stronger, there's a power range for just pure, unadulterated power with things like Olympic lifts. Many people cycle through these different types of training without realizing it and some that are training for specific goals still cycle through and combine various types of training. There isn't one single way to train and as you adapt and progress through your training career, you will need to listen to your body and adjust accordingly.

The other focus bodybuilders have ... the main focus ... is aesthetics and proportions. I don't know any bodybuilders that aren't also very strong. There is nothing markedly different with the exercises bodybuilders do ... they just have a heavier focus on body part proportions ... either for personal reasons or they're trying to compete.

Proper dieting is more important for bodybuilding than other type of training ... and it is the most difficult ... especially as one gets closer to a contest. Every macro has to be on point for optimal growth and optimal "leaning out."

There are different types of training. Some are body builders which although you are dealing with weights it is not the same as weight training. The comment about 4 times a week (consequitive) is correct. You want three days of rest (even most weight training books including the holy grail 'Gold Gym's' states the same).

Again ... completely dependent upon the individual and how they have their routine set up and what their goals are and how the individual reacts to their training. Rest is important, but people get plenty of rest working out 5 days a week if their routine is set up properly. This "you need to go x amount of times a week or you won't progress" mentality needs to die a painful death.

Lastly, concerning Bruce (yes, there is only one). Most of his strength training was not by pig iron but push-ups, pull-up, squats, and serious repetition, etc... Look at those competing in Ninja Warrior (even US), most are not in a gym with weights but get the same with high cut as Bruce. If you are looking for that kind of body and not serious mass then that is the route you should take.

Not even sure what you're saying here, but I will say that calisthenics can be very beneficial. One book you can look into if calisthenics catches your interest is The Naked Warrior by Pavel Tsatsouline. Anything else by him is also good reading.

Another point about bodyweight exercises is if you cannot comfortably do push ups, squats, etc. ... you have no business adding a bar and plates on your body. Master the mechanics of your own body first and then master the mechanics of your body with weight added. Form is more important than anything else you will be doing in the gym.

HIIT has not much to do with building muscle mass.
High-intensity interval training - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I didn't say it did. I said it's a good way to build cardiovascular endurance while sparing muscle tissue while adding mass over normal cardio exercise. It can also be done in a shorter period of time than normal cardio exercise. You also don't HAVE to do HIIT ... or cardio ... it was just a suggestion over regular cardio if cardiovascular endurance is one of your goals. It can be done without affecting your mass building goals.

Yes, the percentage was random, no scientifical proof behind my statement, it was just a little bit of logic, if you allow me.

There was nothing logical about that statement. If logic is not grounded in science, it's not logical.

Why would he take a 3 day routine and break it into a 5 day routine? I dont get your point, imo its a waste of time.

Personal preference and goals.

A 2 days split workout will be his best choice.

You're speaking out of your ass.

Abdominal muscles contain 4 muscle groups, how can you say that they are not large enough. Without your abs you'd be having troubles with keeping your organs inside, not to mention that it links up the lower with the upper part of the body. How could you tell that they are not important or large?

I'm sorry, but I didn't say they weren't important ... I said they are not large enough to elicit a significant metabolic response. The legs are large. The abdominals are not. Lower body work can give you a testosterone boost which will aid in growing your body overall. That is an example of an actual benefit. Not abdominals and magic metabolic boosts.


@ gingernuts: That is some good information.

[gingernuts Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gingernuts]

Thanks to the guys who commended me - I'm by no means an expert myself, I've just spent enough time researching/evaluating/sifting through all the crap/trying to find "signal" amongst all the "noise", that I wish someone had laid it all out for me like I have attempted to in this thread

[seanyboy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close seanyboy]

Hey guys, I've been searching around the forum, as well as the internet, looking for topics on gaining muscle mass without that infamous drug, Steroids. Sadly, I can't seem to find one detailed enough that's actually probably not totally BS.

So I've come to you all, and would like some input on what I'd need to do in order to look bigger and get stronger, without substance abuse. I will say, I KNOW what needs to be done; weight training, HIIT, Cross fit, etc, but it seems the people I've looked up, and claimed it was all natural gains, were phonies. I mean, it'd be great to work hard enough in 4 years and look like Terry Cruise lol.

I just need advice on the matter, what you all have done to get larger. Thanks!

Drugs don't allow the body to build anymore mass than it can genetically, so you can gain as much muscle mass as drugs, just not as quick. You have to train consistently and EAT enough calories and monitor your macros (protein, carbs, fat, etc.) intake.

[Wildcatter Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Wildcatter]

No, i'm not able to detail because people overcomplicate it when it's simple.

Eat more than you burn. Concentrate on protein, healthy fats, and slower digesting carbs. Faster digesting carbs are ok preworkout/during workout/post workout.

That's it.

How much you eat and your metabolic rate is something you have to figure out on your own, no one can tell you how your body is going to respond. I'd say eating 3000cal a day and a g of protein per lb of bodyweight is a good start.

Also the guy advocating barbell exercises has good info, just avoid heavy overhead barbell presses. They will destroy your shoulders unless you have ligaments of the gods. My delts are bigger than my GF's head and I stopped doing them 4 years ago. I've never heard one physical therapist talk about overhead presses with barbells without cringing. The seated overhead press with handles or dumbell presses are fine.

Oh and one more thing, before you start using barbells heavy. Learn form first and foremost for the love of god. Quickest way to end up with back problems is bad form. Go light until it feels natural.

And pain = BAD. Burn = good. Trust your body's natural indicators.

[Jaw Breaker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jaw Breaker]

Thanks to the guys who commended me - I'm by no means an expert myself, I've just spent enough time researching/evaluating/sifting through all the crap/trying to find "signal" amongst all the "noise", that I wish someone had laid it all out for me like I have attempted to in this thread

It is definitely hard to sift through all the nonsense to find the gems of information out there.

Drugs don't allow the body to build anymore mass than it can genetically, so you can gain as much muscle mass as drugs, just not as quick.

Please humor me and tell me where you got this information from.

Eat more than you burn. Concentrate on protein, healthy fats, and slower digesting carbs. Faster digesting carbs are ok preworkout/during workout/post workout.

That's it.

Some pretty basic/good guidelines there.

How much you eat and your metabolic rate is something you have to figure out on your own, no one can tell you how your body is going to respond.

Yep ... it's a trial and error process.

I'd say eating 3000cal a day and a g of protein per lb of bodyweight is a good start.

That can be a bit much for some people. The recommended intake for "muscle builders" is more like 1-1.25 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight. This is about half the recommended amount being thrown around on the internet. You may consume more based on your caloric consumption and that's fine ... but 1 gram per pound is an exaggerated minimum. I think the main focus from the 1 pound per gram statement is just ... make sure you are getting enough protein. This may sometimes lead people to neglect good carbs and fats though, which are just as important for muscle growth. They all work together.

Also the guy advocating barbell exercises has good info, just avoid heavy overhead barbell presses. They will destroy your shoulders unless you have ligaments of the gods. My delts are bigger than my GF's head and I stopped doing them 4 years ago. I've never heard one physical therapist talk about overhead presses with barbells without cringing. The seated overhead press with handles or dumbell presses are fine.

The biggest problem with the overhead press is 90% of people do them wrong ... much like the squat. OH presses should NEVER be done behind the neck (my god that makes me cringe the most when I see it) ... only in front. If something feels even remotely uncomfortable with the overhead shoulder press ... stop doing it. In fact ... any exercise that is causing clear discomfort shouldn't be done. There are always alternatives to an exercise (in most cases). Dumbbells are always a good bet as an alternative to barbell shoulder press.

Oh and one more thing, before you start using barbells heavy. Learn form first and foremost for the love of god. Quickest way to end up with back problems is bad form. Go light until it feels natural.

This 100% of the time. If ... at any point ... you are doing a set with a weight that causes you to lose form ... the weight is too heavy. Drop the weight and perfect the form and then move up. Leave your ego out of the gym. Your body will thank you later.

And pain = BAD. Burn = good. Trust your body's natural indicators.

Pain is always an indicator that something is wrong. So yes ... it is bad joojoo. Listen to your body first and foremost.