Death

[camaro Senior Member Member of the month June 2013 Find all posts View Profile Close camaro]

Oh ok....thanks Pad.You seem to have a lot of knowledge about a lot of different things.Bet you will make a fine lawyer...

[Padawan787 Moderator ReservePEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Padawan787]

Some of the laws were fulfilled because of the Christ Jesus, that does not mean that one may now kill but if one were to do so and then truly repent he may be forgiven, before the Christ Jesus there would not have been the opportunity to be forgiven.

Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other than Jesus said so.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

All of the Old Testament laws will be binding forever.

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB).

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB).

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

“...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35"

This is presumably the passage that you are referring to in your previous post BigO:

Mark 12:2828 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” 29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

There's no annulling of the old testament anywhere in the bible, except for a single change in that god no longer requires any animal (or human) sacrifices (Jesus' death marked the end of his sacrificial bloodlust). This change in the law is a false claim by many christians, with the claim that the old testament's laws have been retracted or Jesus' laws override or supersede them. But this is just plain false.

I hate to say it, but, the majority of christians are hopelessly unaware of the Bible and just cherry-pick passages (annulling or allowing old testament passages that suit them for example). The Bible is misunderstood, christians follow the parts that suit them, and the text itself is incredibly unreliable due to editing and translation errors. The "virgin birth" for example, is likely to be a translation error. Here's what happened:

The Hebrew word for "young woman" is alma. This is what appears in the original Hebrew text. When it was translated into Greek for the Septuagint, it was translated as "parthenos" which can mean "young woman" but usually meant virgin.
The New Testament writers and their communities were all writing/reading in Greek and they used the Greek Bible (the Septuagint) as their scriptures. So in that passage where the Hebrew read "young woman" they saw "virgin" instead. This led to the tradition that Jesus was born of a virgin rather than just a young woman, as a way to conform to a passage that they already believed was a prophetic message about Jesus the messiah.

Anyway, the Old Testament should still be relevant for christians, they just choose to ignore it. I'd like to add that one of the catalysts to me becoming an atheist was actually studying the bible. The bible is the greatest weapon in any atheist's arsenal.

[Padawan787 Moderator ReservePEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Padawan787]

Oh ok....thanks Pad.You seem to have a lot of knowledge about a lot of different things.Bet you will make a fine lawyer...

Thank you Camaro, I certainly hope that I will

[Padawan787 Moderator ReservePEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Padawan787]

Now for those that do not believe in God then maybe it is possible, I am a believer but I guess none of us can gtruly know who was right until the end. this is why I choose not to belittle those that do not believe as I do.

I'd like to add that I hope I'm not coming across this way, I'm not looking to belittle you in any way BigO, just debating scripture and the christian interpretation of it

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

Jesus did not ammend the old testament but rather enhanced it. Very much like today back then you had warring tribes; Jew hated Romans, Romans hated Persians, Cusps hated Toads, and on and on. Christ said 'love one another'; we are all the same, all the same children of what created us and therfore all are worthy of love. The concept of loving ones' enemies was new and very gard to get used to, even to this day. The OT was written by good men trying to make an orderly and peaceful world to live in;to have a Christ come and tell the people of the time that all they believed in was wrong up to this time not only would have not been accepted but it would have made for a big culture shock. Christs message was love one another; when you do that you don't kill, you don't cheat, you don't punish others, and yes you do , in a way repudiate the OT by saying love your enemies. As Christians, and not the wacky ones because there are those, we are calaled to love each other. Cananyone tell me that is bad? The scumbag that blew up Boston; we are lead to believe that the sin was bad but we still must love the sinner. Now try to love and forgive the guy who just killed your son; that what Christ would have done and it really isn't a bad way to live, hard, but not bad!

[Dr Ric Head of My Penis Doctor Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Ric]

On a final note, unconditional love I also feel is the center of gravity in the universe......................... a brief inspirational description of God, not that one can put God into words.....
God is the One who flung the stars from his fingertips
Scooped out the ocean beds with His bare hands, and
Hung the World on Nothing.

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

I'd like to add that I hope I'm not coming across this way, I'm not looking to belittle you in any way BigO, just debating scripture and the christian interpretation of it

Pad you are debating the way "some" christians interpret the Bible. I don't think about it that way and we all know my way is right. Pad you better convert this instant or I will condemn you to the eternal fires! ( or just lock you in a closet with Toad for a day after he ate some bean burritos- that will teach you)

[Padawan787 Moderator ReservePEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Padawan787]

Jesus said some good stuff, but he was pretty crazy and nasty too...


He fully intended to ruin and divide families by spreading his religion:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34–39 NASB)

Advocates beating slaves:

45 "But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.


47 The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." (Luke 12:45-48)

He advocated killing disobedient children:

3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death." (Matthew 15:3-4)

and

"And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[a] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[b] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[c] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)—" (Mark 7:9-11)

There are plenty more, but I can't be bothered looking. Jesus was a hardliner, his "love thy neighbour" message shouldn't cloud that.

[BigO AdministratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close BigO]

I'd like to add that I hope I'm not coming across this way, I'm not looking to belittle you in any way BigO, just debating scripture and the christian interpretation of it

Not at all pad, I found nothing offensive in your post. I am actualy a beleiver that enjoys the views of others. I believe that it encourages learning. We can read the same exact thing but we may find two different meanings and it may make me think and go read some more, nothing wrong with a different point of view, nothing at all.

I especially enjoy it when it is another person that has a good knowledge as it seems you do of the bible.

[Padawan787 Moderator ReservePEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Padawan787]

Pad you are debating the way "some" christians interpret the Bible. I don't think about it that way and we all know my way is right. Pad you better convert this instant or I will condemn you to the eternal fires! ( or just lock you in a closet with Toad for a day after he ate some bean burritos- that will teach you)

I think that I prefer converting to being with Toad

What irks me is that if you are basing a religion upon the teachings of a book (the bible) then you can't just disregard or ignore certain parts of it because you don't like it.

According to the bible, wearing clothes of mixed fabric, shaving, getting tattoos, men having long hair etc. are all not allowed, yet nobody follows these laws of God. I find it hypocritical to pick and choose the parts of the Bible that you believe in and obey, that's all.

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

If a child dishonors his mother or father he shall be put to death! Well that one isn't in my bible but there are many diiferent varieties of the bible isn't there. But what death? Was it a physical death or did He mean a spritual death, that one who cares not for his parents are not living the life they should? Can you really be a good human and not care for those who have cared for you? Should you not care for He who made you above all? Although God does not give us stupid choices but if He did ask you to choose between a wife or Him, isn't the right answer easy? By choosing Him you at the same time are choosing your wife because your wife is part of His creation. This is very deep; I'm gonna make me some breakfast; bacon egg and cheese omelette!

[Dr Ric Head of My Penis Doctor Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Ric]

Pad you are debating the way "some" christians interpret the Bible. I don't think about it that way and we all know my way is right. Pad you better convert this instant or I will condemn you to the eternal fires! ( or just lock you in a closet with Toad for a day after he ate some bean burritos- that will teach you)

Yea u right Bro! Preach on and amen.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Wow this thread certainly got religous.

[Padawan787 Moderator ReservePEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Padawan787]

He means a physical death:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Also, Sometimes God kills children for misbehaving.

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. -- 2 Kings 2:23-24

Then there's this...

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -- Psalm 137:9

[BigO AdministratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close BigO]

On a final note, unconditional love I also feel is the center of gravity in the universe......................... a brief inspirational description of God, not that one can put God into words.....
God is the One who flung the stars from his fingertips
Scooped out the ocean beds with His bare hands, and
Hung the World on Nothing.

That is still more likely than the big bang theory.