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I find that arousal levels help much, I know my pc muscles are strong enough but when I am having sex I am just so much more aroused that I can keep going. I have experienced some really clean DOs like you describe, but afterwards I am just really close to the ponr again and I come within a couple of minutes. Perhaps it has something to do with not holding the kegel long enough, because I am well aware of when I am going to come and I start holding the kegel before any spasms, but it seems like the trick is holding it all the way through until there are no kind of spasms whatsoever left from the orgasm, and you can let the kegel go at that point, otherwise I seem to get some kind of clear fluid at the end even from the very last few weaker contractions
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Thank you so much for this post. ive been trying to find how to do this with no avail. when edging ive been trying to reverse kegel all the way through PONR with no avail because i thought that normal kegeling was a bad idea, but i was never able to hold the RK due and the spasms would just take over.Originally posted by Minuteman View PostComment
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^ You are welcome.
A few last sessions where, in the lack of the proper work, weird.
During my several last sessions i have noticed a serious drop in my spasms while ejaculating to a point that i can control them at will, but since my kegels now are very weak i can shoot at all, but just dribble.
While my EQ and morning wood etc is working ok, that is the only part that makes me confused. There where almost none of the ejacultaion spasms, which is a little bit scary to be honest, since i had to manually use kegels in order to get it out.
It makes me rethink all this reverse kegel only routines (which to be honest i don't even do much in the last few weeks).
There is also a posibility that it has nothing to do with reverse kegels, but with my habit of DO-ing at the end of the session (i do ejaculate every 3 days or so), so now my body is maybe confused.
It is interesting to note that while my control is better (more or less) a certain premature ejaculation reflex still comes even though i am relaxed.
The one more problem is that the unconscious kegels are now more masked since they are weak, so in that light a regular kegel exercises helps in identifying them more easier.
A part of me wants now to stop and return to regular kegels, but the other part of me is curios in the further developments via the reverse kegel routine. Not to mention that the problem that I am not experiencing might not be connected to this but to the way a do the DO. (even though i haven't been doing them allot lately).
NP97 also tells me that he didn't have such problems during his reverse kegel only routine, so either i am doing something wrong with my DOs or the way i preform them (or when i preform them) or it is some outside stress factor (since i had a stresful stuff in real life about a week or so ago...).Comment
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I cant really comment on this as I never really shot semen it always kind of oozed out when I come unless I wait a week or so before ejaculation and my balls start to hurt if I dont ejaculate once a day or so. I have noticed more control from doing just kegels alone, as I have tried using reverse kegels and I find that just relaxing helps more than using a reverse kegel once my muscles are more developed. I still get the preE reflex as well but it comes with arousal levels, once she starts getting close I just lose it and have to DO in order to get her there.Comment
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That is the general point of the reverse kegels forcing relaxation for the sake of learning how to relax, if you can do that then the reverse kegels for you should be only for a sake of pelvic floor balance.I have tried using reverse kegels and I find that just relaxing helps more than using a reverse kegel once my muscles are more developed
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Now a few observations about the presence of kegels and reverse kegels in the process of ejaculation and stuff.
Today I had a so so 20 minutes session with no DO and generally a very very weak and short lived wave and a delayed ejaculation (but not that severe). But today's session was all for observing how i ejaculate since the things are changed now so i could probably notice some new stuff. And i did.
Now, what i noticed is that ejaculation itself rather than having a kegel spasm has also a reverse kegel spasm, but more often than not it is hardly noticeable since for most people the regular kegel is far better developed than the reverse kegel (because most of the time there is no need for a better developed reverse kegel for people without pe), with people with premature ejaculation that "golden"/balanced ration is far of to the kegel side, while for the delayed ejaculation people that ratio is far to the reverse kegel. Since with people with normal and over developed people the ejaculation speed also raises but the amount per shot is lesser, while people that ooze the sperm out have a much slower but filled with more quantity of sperm per shot. It is funny how I didn't notice it before.
I noticed this because my first shot was almost a regular one, but every one later has been just oozing.
In the ejaculation process the reverse kegel spasm makes the pelvic floor forcibly relax so that the "new shot" of sperm can be filled and the kegel spasm fires it.
It is interesting also to note a few things about our relation ship to kegels and why it is considered a good idea to be physically active as one of the ways to cure premature ejaculation.
When the person is active he in many of his exercises actually use the kegels and kegel holds but they are not isolated form the abdominal muscle workout so people just don't notice it, the amount of kegels and quality of the kegels done that way are not much but that may be the point, because it establishes that perfect ratio that enables him to have a balanced pelvic floor muscles.
In a way what we are doing here with out pelvic floor muscles is essentially same as the body building, in that light in order to perserve the balance we also have to do reverse kegels rather than just relaxing in order to preserve that balance.
I noticed that because rather than walking from a time to time i didn't do any of the exercises (until a few days ago) except the reverse kegels, and I did them sporadically (when i remember with no plan whatsoever) in other words I put my pelvic floor muscles in a sort of extreme condition where the only thing I did where reverse kegels.
But reaching this ideal balance for the people with premature ejaculation is probably something that is impossible without the artificially made balance via the kegels and reverse kegel, at least up to this point that is my opinion of it.
The word balance balance might be misleading to point that all four should be exactly the same, but the case is that it just need as certain ratio to be established between kegels, reverse kegels , root lock and reverse root locks.
Finding this ratio will be a hard thing, for now all I can do is to observe the extremes, i had observed a kegel only routine (and found that is is beneficial in many areas, like the ejaculation speed and reach, the orgasm pleasure, easier wave orgasms, stronger overal orgasms etc, and found its pitfalls in too much sensitivity, a key factor in making a premature ejaculation more severe etc), i am now on the road of observing a reverse kegel only routine, after that the root lock and reverse root lock only routine will probably be next.
For now the benefits for me are increased control, but more decreased (but not severe ) sensations, my erections are ok not the top notch iron hard erections like with the kegel routine but between 8-9 on skale to 10, and much easier in preforming a DO, but this might be just beacause my technique gets better.
Seeing the isolated cases might help me to understand more about the pros and cons and to be able to establish a universal ratio and how to make a good conditioning for it.Comment
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Is this during sex or during masturbation only? It seems like sex is the real game changer for most people. I dont have much trouble using kegels and RKs during masturbation but they dont do anything for me during sex for some reason. You have had much more success than me at using these techniques though and I am curious as to how it translates to sex with someone whos muscles are more developed than mine.Comment
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You know that you have the right mindset for overcoming the premature ejaculation when:
You ejaculate after 10 seconds of stimulation and there is still a smile on your face.
It just happened to me today and made me realize that my mindset is now in its prime, because even if i finished it for like 10 seconds i was able to cast out all the negative parts and to honestly and simply enjoy the now. Or better yet not only was i able to cast out the negative i didn't even feel negative. And i am glad I came that far.
Some days before i have had a soft wave orgasm of the type that i didn't have in a long time since i started the reverse kegel only routine (or better yet a routine where i would do a reverse kegels and no regular kegels sporadically).
Since i haven't had it in a long time i planned to make use of it and to go a little further this time then usual. What i got in return weren't waves they where tsunamis i have never felt them in the intensity of this level in a way they where almost physical, my body was so hot i though i was going to melt the bed, all this might seem as the exaggeration but believe me it was not it is simply me at loss of words to better describe it.
Even after a DO and when i decided to stop i remained hot and sensitive for about ah hour or so, the session was also about an hour. And i know that i have goon far by the way i was able to create a mini soft waves just with my kegels the day after, a common notifier for me that shows just how much sensation did i have then.
Just when i think that i can't dance anymore closer to PONR a new mark appears to show me that there is more, at one point I even thing that I forgot where i was, in that "i know where i was but i am not that sure now" feeling, or "i don't think this is even happening" feeling. I felt kind of distant form my body like i was enveloped in something that i can only describe as a "light that feel as soft as a cloud on a touch". When i get feelings like that i think i can write love novels or something....
I was also glad that I wasn't scared but looking back on it I get a little scared now, when thinking just how far can this body of mine take me and just how deep does the connection between nerves and emotions, body and mind goes. Interesting observation (i even made one in that situation) was that my pulse and hearth beat was pretty much normal.
I feel that with every session that has a wave orgasm included i learn as much as i enjoy and that makes me really happy.
As with my previous descriptions i know this all sounds like an over-dramatization or taking it too far or being very esoteric but i came to a point where i don't know if i can describe it or explain it in any other way.Comment
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I had a failed DO attempt, which didn't happen in a long long time. I have came to a point where my technique cannot compensate the lack of strength meaning that now i'm more or less physically where I have started when i started this log some time ago. Also my premature ejaculation problems have a little bit worsened over this week.
It makes me think that maybe that the reasoning that a stronger kegel is more prominent with people who have premature ejaculation and that the stronger reverse kegel is prominent with the prople with delayed ejaculation might not be right.
The pelvic floor balance theory still stands but maybe the way we view that balance is wrong, or course this is just observing from a few more serious premature ejaculation sessions that I had, it might not be even connected to that.
But it might be that a weak kegel muscles are actually what is worsening the premature ejaculation.
Since now I am at the beginning instead of kegel road that i have took before maybe now i will take the reverse kegel road for some time as see what happens.... although i know it might not be as beneficial as the road i took in the past maybe i will discover something new and maybe something extremely useful.Comment
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It has been really awhile since my start of a revese kegel only routines (that where sporadic, more or less) an i think that i have got enough stuff and that continuing further will only make this more redundant and maybe dangerous, also the post here gave me an interesting and maybe more correct way of viewing reverse kegels in general.
PEGym Forums - theory
While my reverse kegel routine might not be as constant as i wanted it to be, make note that during the time i actually started this "reverse kegel only" stuff that i didn't actually do any regular kegels (except one that are involuntary).
So more or less here is my conclusion of the isolated revese kegel only routine and what you might expect from it:
I started this more or less out of curiosity and some reasoning that if the stronger kegel muscles are bringing a pelvic floor imbalance in one direction that the reverse kegel only routine will make an inbalance in the other directions there for eliminating spasms and such, of course i didn't expect it to magically fix all my problems.
The first thing i have noticed is that my ability to experience wave orgasms and such have diminished gratelly, and that the involuntary kegels where also more or less gone. After more detailed observation i have noticed that the involuntary spasms and kegels didn't diminished in occurence as much as they did in their strength, and that even though they where weak they where still there and still triggering the stuff i didn't want them to trigger.
The problem in all that was the fact that now i wasn't able to spot them as easlly as before on the account of how weak they are, so I really had to palpalate and concentrate good to actually feel it, this effect the process of fixing the involuntary kegels on spot by noticing very very hard.
The other problem that start ocuring was the fact that I started shoot out sperm less and less, and i dribbled much more, that effect continued until a culminating point where my sperm now actually flows and dribbles almost always.
One thing that was "better" was by ability to multiple ejaculate which raised conisiderablly, but that i don't see as much and here is why:
My orgasm strength and pleasure have also diminished in every area, leading to desentization that you might not desire, even though it sound like it would fix the problem, which would not since the involuntary kegels still persisted.
My EQ was never more than 8.5-9 i didn't experience once a IRON HARD erection,although my morning wood persisted but that i can't atribute to pelvic floor balance in anyway.
My primary goal how ever was to learn more about how to preform a reverse kegel since i was under the impression that by having a reverse kegel only routine that my knowledge on isolation and preformance would increase and the most important part here is THAT I WAS WRONG!
Doing a reverse kegel only routine will not make you better at reverse kegel, in fact it might actually make you worse since the kegel hold is to weak for you to notice if you are "doing the things right".
As noted in the link I posted in this post, viewing reverse kegel as a stretching exercise rhather than a relaxing exercise might help more in determing where should it be placed in a "routine". My conclusion for now is that you should be doing a reverse kegel reps, then kegel routine, then reverse kegel reps, in the same way you are when you are exercising any muscle group in a way that you "warm up" and "warm down".
In this light i come to an conclusion that ration between a reverse kegel and kegel might not be of much importance after some point since the reverse kegel is just a stretch so doing it more will not reap much benefits, only better prepare your muscle for the exercise.
In this light also, doing a set of the reverse kegels before sex might be beneficial, since it will make your muscle more relaxed an prepared for the tensions there fore reducing certain types of involuntary kegels.
During this all i also noticed a certain distinction between different types of involuntary kegels:
1. The involuntary kegels originated from habit and reflex
2. The involuntary spasms originated from your kegel muscle being too weak (Imagine lifting something very heavy with your hand notice how it shakes violently if you have not build up muscles, or try doing a sit up when you have a bigger belly with weak muscles, notice how much you spasm and shake, that happens with your pelvic floor when is not strong enough ONLY IT IS NOT AS OBVIOUS AS THIS EXAMPLES)
3. The involuntary spasms due to overwork and not warming up (or just being gradual during sex, see now just how much is the forplay important for both
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So bottom lines:
- Doing a reverse kegel only routine in the shot term "might" help you understanding it better, and might help you relax
- Doing it in a long term will only make everything worse, even more so than the kegel only routine
- View reverse kegel during a routine as a strech part of the whole routine rather than the opposite maneuver.
- The real use of reverse kegel will show up only when done alongside regular kegels
- When somebody says do a reverse kegel during sex most of the time the manouver you should do differentiates from the "inflate" or "stretch" manouver and means simply to relax those muscles, just imaging that the gravity is pulling your pelvic floor while you are standing, just let it fall.
While the correlation between the reverse kegels and kegels (for now) isn't of that much importance (other than the fact that you should do them both, but not in some golden ratio), the question that rises up now is how much is the correlation between root lock and kegel important.
The imbalance of the pelvic floor might be more dependant between the ratio of those two (kegel and root lock) much more than between the reverse kegels and kegel (and in that light between reverse root lock and root lock).
This is more or less what i have concluded from this experiment, for now i will return to "ye olde kegels" in order to see can i fix the stuff that i have "broken" with my "reverse kegel only" routine, but now i will implement the reverse kegel as "stretching exercises" in my routine but now with a bigger accent on kegels.
Please note that my pelvic floor didn't weaken as much because of doing reverse kegels as much as it did because I didn't use regular kegels AT ALL, which was the point of experiment.
As for the connection between root lock and kegels there are just three versions that needs observing:
(note: All of these should be preformed with some amount of reverse kegels/reverse root locks as "stretching" exercises or warm-up warm down stuff...)
(note2: It is presumed that one can do root locks and kegels as isolated as possible, this might require some training but it isn't imposible)
1. The amount of the root lock should be equal to the amount of kegels (here we are talking about as much isolation between the two as it is possible to an individual)
-This is most probably to be most logical solution, and problablly most harmles, instead of searching for the ratio by doing them equally you will force the balance between them.
2. The amount of root lock should be less than kegels
-This is not that probable since it causes the imbalance of the pelvic floor and it might be one of the causes of the premature ejaculation in the first place
3. The amount of root lock should be bigger than kegel
- A very interesting notation, and one that I am inclined to do, since i don't know what will it bring, and something tells me this might just be the thing that will bring balance to people with premature ejaculatuon
But generally all three of them should be less destructive than the reverse kegel only routine.
So, my "reverse kegel only routine" is officially over.
Side note:
I have had an delayed ejaculation problem few times but rather than the fact that it was because of reverse kegels i think it was because i didn't do any kegels... but since i have never had a chronic problem with delayed ejaculation i really can say how much is that correct.Last edited by Minuteman; 06-29-2011, 11:40 AM.Comment
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So now your just edging and doing a kegel/reverse kegel routine?Comment
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Are you suggesting that guys with pelvic floor issues tend to be stronger in front kegel than back kegel (aka root lock)?
I know this does occur ,but had thought it not that common.
In any case you seem to be headed for an examination of 4 way balance.
One of my ed cases talks of kegel strength 10, root lock 6 and both reverse 3, so there are 2 issues in his case and 4 way balance is very relevant.Comment
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I think this might be the case, but only after 3-4 months will I might be able to say for certain, for now it is just the process of eliminationOriginally posted by Pegasus View Post
Well, not exactly, while 4way balance seems to be something that sounds nice and logical, I am beginning to think that reverse kegels and reverse root lock does not have that much of the importance anymore in the terms of pelvic floor balance. Rather than than now I think that it is more a 2 way balance between root lock and kegel, where the reverse kegel and reverse root lock are there for the "stretching exercises" and "learning how to relax detense".In any case you seem to be headed for an examination of 4 way balance.
I know this might sound as a step back (or a step in the other direction) but time will tell. This doesn't diminish the usefulness of reverse kegels it just puts them out of the pelvic floor balance theory equation.
What I am trying to say is that for a balanced pelvic floor muscle reverse kegels aren't important because there are many people who function very normally (without premature ejaculation) who didn't ever preform a reverse kegel or reverse root lock intentionally.... but this is yet to be proven of anything.
After all there is still a question of habit and reflex (involunary kegels of that type) that no matter how balanced your pelvic floor is can still occur. Using a reverse kegel and/or turning unconscious kegel into a conscious kegel hold as a method of stopping them still stands as true and tested.
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Basically what I plan to do is:Originally posted by Steve23 View Post
- Determine what ratio of root lock and kegels is best fitting. (should i start with equal parts of root lock and kegels, or should i do more root locks than kegels).
I am currently thinking about should i use reverse kegels at all during this period or should i just stick to root locks and kegels.
I always edge no matter the routine.Comment
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Really really interesting stuff. I need to read a little more closely and carefully to really think about some of this as you've posted a *lot* of info here. You're a credit to the site that you took the time to do this and report back. I've been slacking myself, and things have changed on their own, though I need to take some time to think about precisely how and why. I can relate to a lot of the things you've said here for one reason or another. For instance I feel far less travel in my kegels now than I used to - I think this is more to do with balance overall than underuse or imbalance toward RK. But I could be wrong.
Also I'm aware that my body has settled into its own balance over maybe the last 4-6 weeks. That suggests to me that when you see a dramatic change in your response like this you still need to give it a little time to settle before being absolute about the results.
That said, I still can't DO, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.
Awesome post."I want to go to my death bed one day knowing that even when my heart led me into the fire, I fucking did it anyway, and I have the story to tell."
Everything I know about Premature Ejaculation
Your dick is almost certainly big enough. RelaxComment
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Well in these few days that i returned to kegel and root lock i noticed a nice rise in my libido, be it from the stimulalation form the pelvic floor movement or simply a psychological one.
During one of my sessions i discovered an interesting technique that might not make much sense at the beginning:
When you are close to ponr but not close enough and for those that find full strokes and deep penetration to be problematic because during each thrust you involuntary do a kegel and bring your self ever more rapidly to PONR each time you "pull out" you should hold a kegel until you thrust again when you should release it and even do a slight (but not strong) reverse kegel.
Now for the explanation why this works. If you only use a reverse kegel during thurst most of the time it wont do anything good since the reflex is so strong that it just creates preasure and brings you to ponr quickly.
The logic is to override a reflex by creating another one that is more conscious, you will notice when you try it out just how easy it is to do a kegel every time you pull it out.
The benefit is that you will no longer kegel while thursting there fore the preassure and tension will drop and you will be able to stay on that level of arousal for some time, eventually that is not enough but it will help you in un-training yourself form kegeling while thursting.
The added benefit is that you will feel more pleasure while kegeling during the pullout
Also it is simple and very easy for your body to remember.
So to sum it up as of now i know 4 methods for overcoming involuntary kegels:
1. Preform a reverse kegel the moment you feel the kegel or when you expect it to show up.
2. Hold either a weak reverse kegel or kegel during the edging/sex (not very useful for me at this stage, but can help).
3. Turn it into a counscious kegel hold 1-3 seconds.
4. Do a kegel hold while "pulling out" and let it go while thursting (alternatively but I don't know how good it is, do a reverse kegel during thursting).
Do not stick to just one, interchange them use them all during a session.Comment
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Minutemans work seems to have faded from memory very quickly . He has deep insight .Comment
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